Discussion:
VHS Tape Collectors
(too old to reply)
Computer Nerd Kev
2017-02-28 21:58:24 UTC
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Flipping through channels last night I happened across a show
on ABC2 talking about VHS tape collectors of all things. I
guess it has to happen eventually, but I'm a bit surprised that
it has while tapes are still sitting en-mass on the shelves of
most op-shops and junk stores for prices as low as 20c.

A little research reveals that it's mainly obscure horror
movies that can be worth something significant. The "rare"
Disney tape that the host found in a local Op-Shop appears
to have been given it's value online as a result of an Ebay
scam/hoax:
http://vhscollector.com/articles/disney-black-diamond-beauty-and-beast-vhs-hoax

The TV show:
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/programs/how-to-be-a-fan-with-hex/
--
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Clocky
2017-02-28 22:54:18 UTC
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Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Flipping through channels last night I happened across a show
on ABC2 talking about VHS tape collectors of all things. I
guess it has to happen eventually, but I'm a bit surprised that
it has while tapes are still sitting en-mass on the shelves of
most op-shops and junk stores for prices as low as 20c.
A little research reveals that it's mainly obscure horror
movies that can be worth something significant. The "rare"
Disney tape that the host found in a local Op-Shop appears
to have been given it's value online as a result of an Ebay
http://vhscollector.com/articles/disney-black-diamond-beauty-and-beast-vhs-hoax
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/programs/how-to-be-a-fan-with-hex/
I stopped watching Good Game when this "Hex" replaced Junglist. When she
started yapping on about the N64 being a retro console despite the fact
that three years previous it was still available in stores brand new I
had heard enough.

Sounds like she still talks shit.
Peter Jason
2017-03-01 00:41:40 UTC
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Post by Clocky
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Flipping through channels last night I happened across a show
on ABC2 talking about VHS tape collectors of all things. I
guess it has to happen eventually, but I'm a bit surprised that
it has while tapes are still sitting en-mass on the shelves of
most op-shops and junk stores for prices as low as 20c.
A little research reveals that it's mainly obscure horror
movies that can be worth something significant. The "rare"
Disney tape that the host found in a local Op-Shop appears
to have been given it's value online as a result of an Ebay
http://vhscollector.com/articles/disney-black-diamond-beauty-and-beast-vhs-hoax
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/programs/how-to-be-a-fan-with-hex/
I stopped watching Good Game when this "Hex" replaced Junglist. When she
started yapping on about the N64 being a retro console despite the fact
that three years previous it was still available in stores brand new I
had heard enough.
Sounds like she still talks shit.
Just another foggy Bimbo whose two assets are beneath her chin.
Jeßus
2017-03-04 06:33:32 UTC
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Post by Peter Jason
Post by Clocky
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Flipping through channels last night I happened across a show
on ABC2 talking about VHS tape collectors of all things. I
guess it has to happen eventually, but I'm a bit surprised that
it has while tapes are still sitting en-mass on the shelves of
most op-shops and junk stores for prices as low as 20c.
A little research reveals that it's mainly obscure horror
movies that can be worth something significant. The "rare"
Disney tape that the host found in a local Op-Shop appears
to have been given it's value online as a result of an Ebay
http://vhscollector.com/articles/disney-black-diamond-beauty-and-beast-vhs-hoax
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/programs/how-to-be-a-fan-with-hex/
I stopped watching Good Game when this "Hex" replaced Junglist. When she
started yapping on about the N64 being a retro console despite the fact
that three years previous it was still available in stores brand new I
had heard enough.
Sounds like she still talks shit.
Just another foggy Bimbo whose two assets are beneath her chin.
And yours must play havoc with your vision.
Peter Jason
2017-03-05 23:56:26 UTC
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Post by Jeßus
Post by Peter Jason
Post by Clocky
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Flipping through channels last night I happened across a show
on ABC2 talking about VHS tape collectors of all things. I
guess it has to happen eventually, but I'm a bit surprised that
it has while tapes are still sitting en-mass on the shelves of
most op-shops and junk stores for prices as low as 20c.
A little research reveals that it's mainly obscure horror
movies that can be worth something significant. The "rare"
Disney tape that the host found in a local Op-Shop appears
to have been given it's value online as a result of an Ebay
http://vhscollector.com/articles/disney-black-diamond-beauty-and-beast-vhs-hoax
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/programs/how-to-be-a-fan-with-hex/
I stopped watching Good Game when this "Hex" replaced Junglist. When she
started yapping on about the N64 being a retro console despite the fact
that three years previous it was still available in stores brand new I
had heard enough.
Sounds like she still talks shit.
Just another foggy Bimbo whose two assets are beneath her chin.
And yours must play havoc with your vision.
Please confess to you therapist about projection. They have
mind-stunning meds for this now.
Jeßus
2017-03-06 05:35:17 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Peter Jason
Post by Jeßus
Post by Peter Jason
Post by Clocky
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Flipping through channels last night I happened across a show
on ABC2 talking about VHS tape collectors of all things. I
guess it has to happen eventually, but I'm a bit surprised that
it has while tapes are still sitting en-mass on the shelves of
most op-shops and junk stores for prices as low as 20c.
A little research reveals that it's mainly obscure horror
movies that can be worth something significant. The "rare"
Disney tape that the host found in a local Op-Shop appears
to have been given it's value online as a result of an Ebay
http://vhscollector.com/articles/disney-black-diamond-beauty-and-beast-vhs-hoax
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/programs/how-to-be-a-fan-with-hex/
I stopped watching Good Game when this "Hex" replaced Junglist. When she
started yapping on about the N64 being a retro console despite the fact
that three years previous it was still available in stores brand new I
had heard enough.
Sounds like she still talks shit.
Just another foggy Bimbo whose two assets are beneath her chin.
And yours must play havoc with your vision.
Please confess to you therapist
I don't have one of those.
Post by Peter Jason
about projection. They have
mind-stunning meds for this now.
I thought they were all digital these days?
Peter Jason
2017-03-01 00:45:29 UTC
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Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Flipping through channels last night I happened across a show
on ABC2 talking about VHS tape collectors of all things. I
guess it has to happen eventually, but I'm a bit surprised that
it has while tapes are still sitting en-mass on the shelves of
most op-shops and junk stores for prices as low as 20c.
A little research reveals that it's mainly obscure horror
movies that can be worth something significant. The "rare"
Disney tape that the host found in a local Op-Shop appears
to have been given it's value online as a result of an Ebay
http://vhscollector.com/articles/disney-black-diamond-beauty-and-beast-vhs-hoax
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/programs/how-to-be-a-fan-with-hex/
I heard somewhere that VHS tapes degrade over time because of magnetic
degradation.
Beware of buying old DVD movies on EvilBay because these are most
likely to be ripped off old VHS tapes.

I'll start going to church again if someone can tell where to get
REMASTERED old movies on DVD. No furry, fuzzy VHS rips please.
"Criterion" is good but their selection is limited.
Computer Nerd Kev
2017-03-01 22:11:32 UTC
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Post by Peter Jason
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Flipping through channels last night I happened across a show
on ABC2 talking about VHS tape collectors of all things. I
guess it has to happen eventually, but I'm a bit surprised that
it has while tapes are still sitting en-mass on the shelves of
most op-shops and junk stores for prices as low as 20c.
A little research reveals that it's mainly obscure horror
movies that can be worth something significant. The "rare"
Disney tape that the host found in a local Op-Shop appears
to have been given it's value online as a result of an Ebay
http://vhscollector.com/articles/disney-black-diamond-beauty-and-beast-vhs-hoax
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/programs/how-to-be-a-fan-with-hex/
I heard somewhere that VHS tapes degrade over time because of magnetic
degradation.
Not the old ones that I have. I guess it's another thing that has to
happen eventually, but I don't think any time soon. Unless they spend
that time sitting in close proximity to a relatively strong changing
magnetic field that is.
Post by Peter Jason
Beware of buying old DVD movies on EvilBay because these are most
likely to be ripped off old VHS tapes.
I'll start going to church again if someone can tell where to get
REMASTERED old movies on DVD. No furry, fuzzy VHS rips please.
"Criterion" is good but their selection is limited.
Sounds like you want freshly telecined material from an original
(preferably unused) film print. I guess it comes down to whether
there's an incentive for the holders of such a film to go to the
expense.
--
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Peter Jason
2017-03-01 22:28:29 UTC
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Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Peter Jason
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Flipping through channels last night I happened across a show
on ABC2 talking about VHS tape collectors of all things. I
guess it has to happen eventually, but I'm a bit surprised that
it has while tapes are still sitting en-mass on the shelves of
most op-shops and junk stores for prices as low as 20c.
A little research reveals that it's mainly obscure horror
movies that can be worth something significant. The "rare"
Disney tape that the host found in a local Op-Shop appears
to have been given it's value online as a result of an Ebay
http://vhscollector.com/articles/disney-black-diamond-beauty-and-beast-vhs-hoax
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/programs/how-to-be-a-fan-with-hex/
I heard somewhere that VHS tapes degrade over time because of magnetic
degradation.
Not the old ones that I have. I guess it's another thing that has to
happen eventually, but I don't think any time soon. Unless they spend
that time sitting in close proximity to a relatively strong changing
magnetic field that is.
Post by Peter Jason
Beware of buying old DVD movies on EvilBay because these are most
likely to be ripped off old VHS tapes.
I'll start going to church again if someone can tell where to get
REMASTERED old movies on DVD. No furry, fuzzy VHS rips please.
"Criterion" is good but their selection is limited.
Sounds like you want freshly telecined material from an original
(preferably unused) film print. I guess it comes down to whether
there's an incentive for the holders of such a film to go to the
expense.
One can see the affect of good re mastering in such famous movies as
"The Maltese Falcon" and "Casablanca". Even some Chaplin classics are
as new with proper treatment.
Jeßus
2017-03-04 06:36:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Jason
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Peter Jason
I'll start going to church again if someone can tell where to get
REMASTERED old movies on DVD. No furry, fuzzy VHS rips please.
"Criterion" is good but their selection is limited.
Sounds like you want freshly telecined material from an original
(preferably unused) film print. I guess it comes down to whether
there's an incentive for the holders of such a film to go to the
expense.
One can see the affect of good re mastering in such famous movies as
"The Maltese Falcon" and "Casablanca". Even some Chaplin classics are
as new with proper treatment.
'remastered' doesn't necessarily mean it's better. That's definitely
the case with CDs and vinyl.
Jeßus
2017-03-04 06:34:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Jason
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Flipping through channels last night I happened across a show
on ABC2 talking about VHS tape collectors of all things. I
guess it has to happen eventually, but I'm a bit surprised that
it has while tapes are still sitting en-mass on the shelves of
most op-shops and junk stores for prices as low as 20c.
A little research reveals that it's mainly obscure horror
movies that can be worth something significant. The "rare"
Disney tape that the host found in a local Op-Shop appears
to have been given it's value online as a result of an Ebay
http://vhscollector.com/articles/disney-black-diamond-beauty-and-beast-vhs-hoax
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/programs/how-to-be-a-fan-with-hex/
I heard somewhere that VHS tapes degrade over time because of magnetic
degradation.
Beware of buying old DVD movies on EvilBay because these are most
likely to be ripped off old VHS tapes.
You seem to have an inexhaustible supply of bullshit to share with us.
How do you manage it?
Trevor
2017-03-06 04:48:28 UTC
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Post by Jeßus
Post by Peter Jason
I heard somewhere that VHS tapes degrade over time because of magnetic
degradation.
You seem to have an inexhaustible supply of bullshit to share with us.
How do you manage it?
Why do you say it's bullshit? It's a well known fact that magnetic
domains on the tape will gradually change alignment over time. Given
enough time entropy says the tape will re-assume a completely random
state. The only question is whether the effect will bother you in your
lifetime or not. And whether the tape backing and binder will be a much
bigger issue far sooner!
"It won't happen overnight, but it WILL happen" :-)

Trevor.
Jeßus
2017-03-06 05:30:49 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Trevor
Post by Jeßus
Post by Peter Jason
I heard somewhere that VHS tapes degrade over time because of magnetic
degradation.
You seem to have an inexhaustible supply of bullshit to share with us.
How do you manage it?
Why do you say it's bullshit?
Why did you intentionally edit out the context of what I was replying
to in order to me look like an idiot?
Post by Trevor
It's a well known fact that magnetic
domains on the tape will gradually change alignment over time. Given
enough time entropy says the tape will re-assume a completely random
state. The only question is whether the effect will bother you in your
lifetime or not. And whether the tape backing and binder will be a much
bigger issue far sooner!
"It won't happen overnight, but it WILL happen" :-)
Indeed. No argument there.
Post by Trevor
Beware of buying old DVD movies on EvilBay because these are most
likely to be ripped off old VHS tapes.
Now... WHY did you do that?
Peter Jason
2017-03-06 05:35:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jeßus
Post by Trevor
Post by Jeßus
Post by Peter Jason
I heard somewhere that VHS tapes degrade over time because of magnetic
degradation.
You seem to have an inexhaustible supply of bullshit to share with us.
How do you manage it?
Why do you say it's bullshit?
Why did you intentionally edit out the context of what I was replying
to in order to me look like an idiot?
Post by Trevor
It's a well known fact that magnetic
domains on the tape will gradually change alignment over time. Given
enough time entropy says the tape will re-assume a completely random
state. The only question is whether the effect will bother you in your
lifetime or not. And whether the tape backing and binder will be a much
bigger issue far sooner!
"It won't happen overnight, but it WILL happen" :-)
Indeed. No argument there.
Post by Trevor
Beware of buying old DVD movies on EvilBay because these are most
likely to be ripped off old VHS tapes.
Now... WHY did you do that?
Because he wished to spare your brittle feelings. We chastened few,
who have been victims of EvilBay, have survived to tell thee!
Jeßus
2017-03-06 05:37:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Jason
Post by Jeßus
Post by Trevor
Post by Jeßus
Post by Peter Jason
I heard somewhere that VHS tapes degrade over time because of magnetic
degradation.
You seem to have an inexhaustible supply of bullshit to share with us.
How do you manage it?
Why do you say it's bullshit?
Why did you intentionally edit out the context of what I was replying
to in order to me look like an idiot?
Post by Trevor
It's a well known fact that magnetic
domains on the tape will gradually change alignment over time. Given
enough time entropy says the tape will re-assume a completely random
state. The only question is whether the effect will bother you in your
lifetime or not. And whether the tape backing and binder will be a much
bigger issue far sooner!
"It won't happen overnight, but it WILL happen" :-)
Indeed. No argument there.
Post by Trevor
Beware of buying old DVD movies on EvilBay because these are most
likely to be ripped off old VHS tapes.
Now... WHY did you do that?
Because he wished to spare your brittle feelings. We chastened few,
who have been victims of EvilBay, have survived to tell thee!
Ah bollocks. Not all old movies on DVDs are dodgy Chinese ripoffs.
Some official titles were just plain terrible on their own.
Trevor
2017-03-06 12:32:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jeßus
Post by Trevor
Post by Jeßus
Post by Peter Jason
I heard somewhere that VHS tapes degrade over time because of magnetic
degradation.
You seem to have an inexhaustible supply of bullshit to share with us.
How do you manage it?
Why do you say it's bullshit?
Why did you intentionally edit out the context of what I was replying
to in order to me look like an idiot?
More bullshit. I simply edited out the irrelevant bit to what I actually
replying to.
Post by Jeßus
Post by Trevor
It's a well known fact that magnetic
domains on the tape will gradually change alignment over time. Given
enough time entropy says the tape will re-assume a completely random
state. The only question is whether the effect will bother you in your
lifetime or not. And whether the tape backing and binder will be a much
bigger issue far sooner!
"It won't happen overnight, but it WILL happen" :-)
Indeed. No argument there.
Post by Trevor
Beware of buying old DVD movies on EvilBay because these are most
likely to be ripped off old VHS tapes.
Now... WHY did you do that?
How the hell does that reverse what you said above!!!!!!!!!!!!
And if so did why did you say it?
YOU are the idiot!

Trevor.
Jeßus
2017-03-06 18:47:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Trevor
Post by Jeßus
Post by Trevor
Post by Jeßus
Post by Peter Jason
I heard somewhere that VHS tapes degrade over time because of magnetic
degradation.
You seem to have an inexhaustible supply of bullshit to share with us.
How do you manage it?
Why do you say it's bullshit?
Why did you intentionally edit out the context of what I was replying
to in order to me look like an idiot?
More bullshit. I simply edited out the irrelevant bit to what I actually
replying to.
WTF? You edited out the 'irrelevant' (to you) bit that I was replying
to. So what sense does it make to then leave my reply in and then
comment on it?
Post by Trevor
Post by Jeßus
Post by Trevor
It's a well known fact that magnetic
domains on the tape will gradually change alignment over time. Given
enough time entropy says the tape will re-assume a completely random
state. The only question is whether the effect will bother you in your
lifetime or not. And whether the tape backing and binder will be a much
bigger issue far sooner!
"It won't happen overnight, but it WILL happen" :-)
Indeed. No argument there.
Post by Trevor
Beware of buying old DVD movies on EvilBay because these are most
likely to be ripped off old VHS tapes.
Now... WHY did you do that?
How the hell does that reverse what you said above!!!!!!!!!!!!
Umm, because I the bit I was replying to was what you edited out...
Post by Trevor
And if so did why did you say it?
YOU are the idiot!
Yep. Didn't take long for you to default to abuse. As always. Back
into the filter you go.
Trevor
2017-03-07 07:38:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jeßus
Post by Trevor
Post by Jeßus
Post by Trevor
Post by Jeßus
Post by Peter Jason
I heard somewhere that VHS tapes degrade over time because of magnetic
degradation.
You seem to have an inexhaustible supply of bullshit to share with us.
How do you manage it?
Why do you say it's bullshit?
Why did you intentionally edit out the context of what I was replying
to in order to me look like an idiot?
More bullshit. I simply edited out the irrelevant bit to what I actually
replying to.
WTF? You edited out the 'irrelevant' (to you) bit that I was replying
to. So what sense does it make to then leave my reply in and then
comment on it?
Post by Trevor
Post by Jeßus
Post by Trevor
It's a well known fact that magnetic
domains on the tape will gradually change alignment over time. Given
enough time entropy says the tape will re-assume a completely random
state. The only question is whether the effect will bother you in your
lifetime or not. And whether the tape backing and binder will be a much
bigger issue far sooner!
"It won't happen overnight, but it WILL happen" :-)
Indeed. No argument there.
Post by Trevor
Beware of buying old DVD movies on EvilBay because these are most
likely to be ripped off old VHS tapes.
Now... WHY did you do that?
How the hell does that reverse what you said above!!!!!!!!!!!!
Umm, because I the bit I was replying to was what you edited out...
Umm the ONLY bit *I* was replying to was still there! I had no
disagreement with the rest. And your statement is still just the same
crap with or without the rest you keep complaining about to try and
distract from what you apparently admit now was wrong. Just because one
part is right, doesn't make the rest right.
Post by Jeßus
Post by Trevor
And if so did why did you say it?
YOU are the idiot!
Yep. Didn't take long for you to default to abuse. As always. Back
into the filter you go.
Great, saves me the trouble.

Trevor.
Peter Jason
2017-03-06 05:32:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Trevor
Post by Jeßus
Post by Peter Jason
I heard somewhere that VHS tapes degrade over time because of magnetic
degradation.
You seem to have an inexhaustible supply of bullshit to share with us.
How do you manage it?
Why do you say it's bullshit? It's a well known fact that magnetic
domains on the tape will gradually change alignment over time. Given
enough time entropy says the tape will re-assume a completely random
state. The only question is whether the effect will bother you in your
lifetime or not. And whether the tape backing and binder will be a much
bigger issue far sooner!
"It won't happen overnight, but it WILL happen" :-)
Trevor.
Indeed my cousin has just had all his family VHS videos transcribed to
DVD because of this. They do colour correction and sharpening too.
jonz
2017-03-06 14:54:51 UTC
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Raw Message
He's probably using your Overflow
felix
2017-03-05 04:44:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Jason
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Flipping through channels last night I happened across a show
on ABC2 talking about VHS tape collectors of all things. I
guess it has to happen eventually, but I'm a bit surprised that
it has while tapes are still sitting en-mass on the shelves of
most op-shops and junk stores for prices as low as 20c.
A little research reveals that it's mainly obscure horror
movies that can be worth something significant. The "rare"
Disney tape that the host found in a local Op-Shop appears
to have been given it's value online as a result of an Ebay
http://vhscollector.com/articles/disney-black-diamond-beauty-and-beast-vhs-hoax
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/programs/how-to-be-a-fan-with-hex/
I heard somewhere that VHS tapes degrade over time because of magnetic
degradation.
they most certainly do. the image fades and becomes 'snowy'. the
magnetic particles in the tape that compose the image each have their
own orientation. it's how the image is formed. due to the fact that each
layer of tape is against each other layer, because the tape is wound up,
the participles act like little magnets, and exert a magnetic influence
on particles in adjacent layers, causing them to slowly change their
orientation, which results in gradual loss of the image. tapes should be
wound forward and back again periodically to help prevent this. better
quality tapes will have more resistance to this phenomenon
Post by Peter Jason
Beware of buying old DVD movies on EvilBay because these are most
likely to be ripped off old VHS tapes.
many DVD's sold from China are just video cam of a tv screen! I got
caught once.
Post by Peter Jason
I'll start going to church again if someone can tell where to get
REMASTERED old movies on DVD. No furry, fuzzy VHS rips please.
"Criterion" is good but their selection is limited.
a friend of mine is a old movie buff and has thousands of old movies he
gets mostly from the USA. I'll ask him where he gets them
--
http://thereligionofpeace.com
http://www.barenakedislam.com/
http://www.siotw.org
felix
2017-03-05 04:55:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by felix
Post by Peter Jason
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Flipping through channels last night I happened across a show
on ABC2 talking about VHS tape collectors of all things. I
guess it has to happen eventually, but I'm a bit surprised that
it has while tapes are still sitting en-mass on the shelves of
most op-shops and junk stores for prices as low as 20c.
A little research reveals that it's mainly obscure horror
movies that can be worth something significant. The "rare"
Disney tape that the host found in a local Op-Shop appears
to have been given it's value online as a result of an Ebay
http://vhscollector.com/articles/disney-black-diamond-beauty-and-beast-vhs-hoax
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/programs/how-to-be-a-fan-with-hex/
I heard somewhere that VHS tapes degrade over time because of magnetic
degradation.
they most certainly do. the image fades and becomes 'snowy'. the
magnetic particles in the tape that compose the image each have their
own orientation. it's how the image is formed. due to the fact that
each layer of tape is against each other layer, because the tape is
wound up, the participles act like little magnets, and exert a
magnetic influence on particles in adjacent layers, causing them to
slowly change their orientation, which results in gradual loss of the
image. tapes should be wound forward and back again periodically to
help prevent this. better quality tapes will have more resistance to
this phenomenon
Post by Peter Jason
Beware of buying old DVD movies on EvilBay because these are most
likely to be ripped off old VHS tapes.
many DVD's sold from China are just video cam of a tv screen! I got
caught once.
Post by Peter Jason
I'll start going to church again if someone can tell where to get
REMASTERED old movies on DVD. No furry, fuzzy VHS rips please.
"Criterion" is good but their selection is limited.
a friend of mine is a old movie buff and has thousands of old movies
he gets mostly from the USA. I'll ask him where he gets them
I see that this is a site I've bought movies for him from. dunno if they
have what you want tho..

http://www.moviesunlimited.com/
--
http://thereligionofpeace.com
http://www.barenakedislam.com/
http://www.siotw.org
Computer Nerd Kev
2017-03-06 22:01:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by felix
Post by Peter Jason
I heard somewhere that VHS tapes degrade over time because of magnetic
degradation.
they most certainly do. the image fades and becomes 'snowy'. the
magnetic particles in the tape that compose the image each have their
own orientation. it's how the image is formed. due to the fact that each
layer of tape is against each other layer, because the tape is wound up,
the participles act like little magnets, and exert a magnetic influence
on particles in adjacent layers, causing them to slowly change their
orientation, which results in gradual loss of the image.
I haven't noticed much more "snow" in tapes from the same publisher made
in the late 80s compared to tapes from the early 2000s. I'm not convinced
that this will be a problem within the lifetime of anyone who was around
to buy a VHS tape new.
Post by felix
tapes should be
wound forward and back again periodically to help prevent this.
Cite?
Post by felix
better
quality tapes will have more resistance to this phenomenon
--
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Computer Nerd Kev
2017-03-11 01:40:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by felix
Post by Peter Jason
I heard somewhere that VHS tapes degrade over time because of magnetic
degradation.
they most certainly do. the image fades and becomes 'snowy'. the
magnetic particles in the tape that compose the image each have their
own orientation. it's how the image is formed. due to the fact that each
layer of tape is against each other layer, because the tape is wound up,
the participles act like little magnets, and exert a magnetic influence
on particles in adjacent layers, causing them to slowly change their
orientation, which results in gradual loss of the image.
I haven't noticed much more "snow" in tapes from the same publisher made
in the late 80s compared to tapes from the early 2000s. I'm not convinced
that this will be a problem within the lifetime of anyone who was around
to buy a VHS tape new.
Post by felix
tapes should be
wound forward and back again periodically to help prevent this.
Cite?
None forthcoming apparantly, so I did some searching and found some
counter-cites of my own:

http://richardhess.com/notes/2008/02/15/winding-tapes-for-long-term-storage/
-Note the comment from Peter Brothers, here is part of it:

"Over the last 27+ years we have processed over 350,000 tapes at our facility
and we have definitely seen the negative effects of loose tape packs from
expansion/contraction during storage on large reel formats (2video, 1/4audio,
etc.). Where these effects are extreme and allowed to remain
uncorrected, they can result in unrecoverable damage to the tape in
long-term storage. On the other hand, unless a tape has been exposed to
flood, fire or machine malfunction; we have never seen a VHS or other small
reel cassette with a hub lock that has suffered significantly from
expansion/contraction in storage."

It would seem that the recommendation for rewinding tapes originates from
reel-to-reel formats, and does not apply to VHS cassettes. The rest of the
page deals with the controversy over whether periodic rewinding is sound
advise for any tape format.

On the exact matter of magnetic degradation through interaction of the
magnetic fields during storage (which the above link indicates is not
a key factor in the rewinding practice anyway), I find it telling that
on this page describing the physical aspects involved in tape
degradation on the same website:
http://richardhess.com/notes/2006/03/09/tape-degradation-introduction/

and this page on the website of the business associated with Peter Brothers
from above, describing broarder influences on tape deterioration:
http://www.specsbros.com/preservation-tape-endangerment-issues.html

neither makes mention of magnetic degradation as factor.

As these people are dealing with formats far predating VHS, it seems
that magnetic degradation is indeed not a significant factor over a
relevant period of time.
--
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felix
2017-03-11 06:13:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by felix
Post by Peter Jason
I heard somewhere that VHS tapes degrade over time because of magnetic
degradation.
they most certainly do. the image fades and becomes 'snowy'. the
magnetic particles in the tape that compose the image each have their
own orientation. it's how the image is formed. due to the fact that each
layer of tape is against each other layer, because the tape is wound up,
the participles act like little magnets, and exert a magnetic influence
on particles in adjacent layers, causing them to slowly change their
orientation, which results in gradual loss of the image.
I haven't noticed much more "snow" in tapes from the same publisher made
in the late 80s compared to tapes from the early 2000s. I'm not convinced
that this will be a problem within the lifetime of anyone who was around
to buy a VHS tape new.
Post by felix
tapes should be
wound forward and back again periodically to help prevent this.
Cite?
None forthcoming apparantly, so I did some searching and found some
http://richardhess.com/notes/2008/02/15/winding-tapes-for-long-term-storage/
"Over the last 27+ years we have processed over 350,000 tapes at our facility
and we have definitely seen the negative effects of loose tape packs from
expansion/contraction during storage on large reel formats (2video, 1/4audio,
etc.). Where these effects are extreme and allowed to remain
uncorrected, they can result in unrecoverable damage to the tape in
long-term storage. On the other hand, unless a tape has been exposed to
flood, fire or machine malfunction; we have never seen a VHS or other small
reel cassette with a hub lock that has suffered significantly from
expansion/contraction in storage."
It would seem that the recommendation for rewinding tapes originates from
reel-to-reel formats, and does not apply to VHS cassettes. The rest of the
page deals with the controversy over whether periodic rewinding is sound
advise for any tape format.
On the exact matter of magnetic degradation through interaction of the
magnetic fields during storage (which the above link indicates is not
a key factor in the rewinding practice anyway), I find it telling that
on this page describing the physical aspects involved in tape
http://richardhess.com/notes/2006/03/09/tape-degradation-introduction/
and this page on the website of the business associated with Peter Brothers
http://www.specsbros.com/preservation-tape-endangerment-issues.html
neither makes mention of magnetic degradation as factor.
As these people are dealing with formats far predating VHS, it seems
that magnetic degradation is indeed not a significant factor over a
relevant period of time.
well without going into all of that, I just suggest you don't count on
the images on your tapes remaining unchanged over time.
--
http://thereligionofpeace.com
http://www.barenakedislam.com/
http://www.siotw.org
Computer Nerd Kev
2017-03-11 06:29:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by felix
well without going into all of that, I just suggest you don't count on
the images on your tapes remaining unchanged over time.
_without_ going into all of that? How can you know what to count on
if you don't look into the technicalities behind it? Surely then
you couldn't trust any recording medium.
--
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Clocky
2017-03-11 17:18:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by felix
well without going into all of that, I just suggest you don't count on
the images on your tapes remaining unchanged over time.
_without_ going into all of that? How can you know what to count on
if you don't look into the technicalities behind it? Surely then
you couldn't trust any recording medium.
He doesn't. He believes he can see colour and clarity differences
between same spec HDMI cables (between cheap and audiophool type gear)
and even between material recorded on different brands of blank DVD media.

IMO the "changes" people perceive in VHS quality can simply be put down
to how the perceive the image to have changed simply because they are
now comparing it to DVD and BluRay image quality and viewing it on LCD
screens.

Yeah, it looks pretty shithouse now, but back in the day the same
shithouse was all there was :-)
Computer Nerd Kev
2017-03-11 22:07:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Clocky
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by felix
well without going into all of that, I just suggest you don't count on
the images on your tapes remaining unchanged over time.
_without_ going into all of that? How can you know what to count on
if you don't look into the technicalities behind it? Surely then
you couldn't trust any recording medium.
He doesn't. He believes he can see colour and clarity differences
between same spec HDMI cables (between cheap and audiophool type gear)
and even between material recorded on different brands of blank DVD media.
Yeah, I've been around to see that nonsense too.
Post by Clocky
IMO the "changes" people perceive in VHS quality can simply be put down
to how the perceive the image to have changed simply because they are
now comparing it to DVD and BluRay image quality and viewing it on LCD
screens.
I think the LCD screens are the main cause of misconceptions simply because
of the way they work: They have to upscale the video to match their native
(much higher) resolution. The upscaling introduces a lot of "blurring" to
the image, and the picture looks terrible. You can see the effect on a
computer with a CRT monitor viewing a low-res video fullscreen at a low
resolution setting, and then at high one. I watch my old tapes on a CRT TV
and don't have a problem (though DVDs are better of course). You probably
know this already from old video game machines though.
--
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Clocky
2017-03-12 01:52:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Clocky
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by felix
well without going into all of that, I just suggest you don't count on
the images on your tapes remaining unchanged over time.
_without_ going into all of that? How can you know what to count on
if you don't look into the technicalities behind it? Surely then
you couldn't trust any recording medium.
He doesn't. He believes he can see colour and clarity differences
between same spec HDMI cables (between cheap and audiophool type gear)
and even between material recorded on different brands of blank DVD media.
Yeah, I've been around to see that nonsense too.
Post by Clocky
IMO the "changes" people perceive in VHS quality can simply be put down
to how the perceive the image to have changed simply because they are
now comparing it to DVD and BluRay image quality and viewing it on LCD
screens.
I think the LCD screens are the main cause of misconceptions simply because
of the way they work: They have to upscale the video to match their native
(much higher) resolution. The upscaling introduces a lot of "blurring" to
the image, and the picture looks terrible. You can see the effect on a
computer with a CRT monitor viewing a low-res video fullscreen at a low
resolution setting, and then at high one. I watch my old tapes on a CRT TV
and don't have a problem (though DVDs are better of course). You probably
know this already from old video game machines though.
Well yes, and that is why I keep a CRT TV and monitor around and on that
note I wish I had kept a 1702, that had a beaut picture and was tough as
nails. The 1201 given to me recently is a poor substitute by comparison.
felix
2017-03-19 02:18:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Clocky
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by felix
well without going into all of that, I just suggest you don't count on
the images on your tapes remaining unchanged over time.
_without_ going into all of that? How can you know what to count on
if you don't look into the technicalities behind it? Surely then
you couldn't trust any recording medium.
He doesn't. He believes he can see colour and clarity differences
between same spec HDMI cables (between cheap and audiophool type gear)
and even between material recorded on different brands of blank DVD media.
IMO the "changes" people perceive in VHS quality can simply be put
down to how the perceive the image to have changed simply because they
are now comparing it to DVD and BluRay image quality and viewing it on
LCD screens.
Yeah, it looks pretty shithouse now, but back in the day the same
shithouse was all there was :-)
never let the facts get in the way of a good story, dickhead..

http://www.rmavp.com/facts-about-old-video-tape-deterioration-why-you-should-transfer-and-convert-now/

http://www.tech-faq.com/how-long-vhs-tapes-last.html

http://www.ebay.com.au/gds/How-Long-Do-VHS-Tapes-Last-/10000000178626983/g.html

etc., etc.,
--
http://thereligionofpeace.com
http://www.barenakedislam.com/
http://www.siotw.org
Computer Nerd Kev
2017-03-19 22:08:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by felix
Post by Clocky
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by felix
well without going into all of that, I just suggest you don't count on
the images on your tapes remaining unchanged over time.
_without_ going into all of that? How can you know what to count on
if you don't look into the technicalities behind it? Surely then
you couldn't trust any recording medium.
He doesn't. He believes he can see colour and clarity differences
between same spec HDMI cables (between cheap and audiophool type gear)
and even between material recorded on different brands of blank DVD media.
IMO the "changes" people perceive in VHS quality can simply be put
down to how the perceive the image to have changed simply because they
are now comparing it to DVD and BluRay image quality and viewing it on
LCD screens.
Yeah, it looks pretty shithouse now, but back in the day the same
shithouse was all there was :-)
never let the facts get in the way of a good story, dickhead..
http://www.rmavp.com/facts-about-old-video-tape-deterioration-why-you-should-transfer-and-convert-now/
http://www.tech-faq.com/how-long-vhs-tapes-last.html
http://www.ebay.com.au/gds/How-Long-Do-VHS-Tapes-Last-/10000000178626983/g.html
etc., etc.,
Not only do those links recommend transferring to recordable DVDs,
which are known to fail much sooner than the VHS tapes have, but
they mainly refer to damage resulting from poor storage conditions.

The last link address magnetic degradation as "VHS Remanence Decay",
but says:

"There is no exact measurement for how remanence decay occurs, but
it is a gradual process that affects all VHS tapes over time."

As I've said, I assume this time is too long for me to worry about,
and this doesn't provide any evidence to the contrary.
--
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felix
2017-03-19 23:31:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by felix
Post by Clocky
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by felix
well without going into all of that, I just suggest you don't count on
the images on your tapes remaining unchanged over time.
_without_ going into all of that? How can you know what to count on
if you don't look into the technicalities behind it? Surely then
you couldn't trust any recording medium.
He doesn't. He believes he can see colour and clarity differences
between same spec HDMI cables (between cheap and audiophool type gear)
and even between material recorded on different brands of blank DVD media.
IMO the "changes" people perceive in VHS quality can simply be put
down to how the perceive the image to have changed simply because they
are now comparing it to DVD and BluRay image quality and viewing it on
LCD screens.
Yeah, it looks pretty shithouse now, but back in the day the same
shithouse was all there was :-)
never let the facts get in the way of a good story, dickhead..
http://www.rmavp.com/facts-about-old-video-tape-deterioration-why-you-should-transfer-and-convert-now/
http://www.tech-faq.com/how-long-vhs-tapes-last.html
http://www.ebay.com.au/gds/How-Long-Do-VHS-Tapes-Last-/10000000178626983/g.html
etc., etc.,
Not only do those links recommend transferring to recordable DVDs,
which are known to fail much sooner than the VHS tapes have,
really? I wouldn't want to put my money on it
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
but
they mainly refer to damage resulting from poor storage conditions.
The last link address magnetic degradation as "VHS Remanence Decay",
"There is no exact measurement for how remanence decay occurs, but
it is a gradual process that affects all VHS tapes over time."
As I've said, I assume this time is too long for me to worry about,
and this doesn't provide any evidence to the contrary.
but I wasn't addressing your situation specifically, or even replying to you
--
http://thereligionofpeace.com
http://www.barenakedislam.com/
http://www.siotw.org
Computer Nerd Kev
2017-03-20 01:34:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by felix
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by felix
Post by Clocky
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by felix
well without going into all of that, I just suggest you don't count on
the images on your tapes remaining unchanged over time.
_without_ going into all of that? How can you know what to count on
if you don't look into the technicalities behind it? Surely then
you couldn't trust any recording medium.
He doesn't. He believes he can see colour and clarity differences
between same spec HDMI cables (between cheap and audiophool type gear)
and even between material recorded on different brands of blank DVD media.
IMO the "changes" people perceive in VHS quality can simply be put
down to how the perceive the image to have changed simply because they
are now comparing it to DVD and BluRay image quality and viewing it on
LCD screens.
Yeah, it looks pretty shithouse now, but back in the day the same
shithouse was all there was :-)
never let the facts get in the way of a good story, dickhead..
http://www.rmavp.com/facts-about-old-video-tape-deterioration-why-you-should-transfer-and-convert-now/
http://www.tech-faq.com/how-long-vhs-tapes-last.html
http://www.ebay.com.au/gds/How-Long-Do-VHS-Tapes-Last-/10000000178626983/g.html
etc., etc.,
Not only do those links recommend transferring to recordable DVDs,
which are known to fail much sooner than the VHS tapes have,
really? I wouldn't want to put my money on it
http://thexlab.com/faqs/opticalmedialongevity.html#Anchor-What-35882
"Only 47 percent of the recordable DVDs tested indicated an estimated
life expectancy beyond 15 years. Some had a predicted life expectancy
as short as 1.9 years."

I know already that my own VHS tapes have beat that.
Post by felix
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
but
they mainly refer to damage resulting from poor storage conditions.
The last link address magnetic degradation as "VHS Remanence Decay",
"There is no exact measurement for how remanence decay occurs, but
it is a gradual process that affects all VHS tapes over time."
As I've said, I assume this time is too long for me to worry about,
and this doesn't provide any evidence to the contrary.
but I wasn't addressing your situation specifically, or even replying to you
OK, but if you don't want others to add their own comments to the
discussion, then I suggest you use Email instead (if Clocky would
allow).

I think what you posted was very relevant to what you've been
discussing with me anyway.
--
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#_ < |\| |< _#
felix
2017-03-20 02:27:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by felix
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by felix
Post by Clocky
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by felix
well without going into all of that, I just suggest you don't count on
the images on your tapes remaining unchanged over time.
_without_ going into all of that? How can you know what to count on
if you don't look into the technicalities behind it? Surely then
you couldn't trust any recording medium.
He doesn't. He believes he can see colour and clarity differences
between same spec HDMI cables (between cheap and audiophool type gear)
and even between material recorded on different brands of blank DVD media.
IMO the "changes" people perceive in VHS quality can simply be put
down to how the perceive the image to have changed simply because they
are now comparing it to DVD and BluRay image quality and viewing it on
LCD screens.
Yeah, it looks pretty shithouse now, but back in the day the same
shithouse was all there was :-)
never let the facts get in the way of a good story, dickhead..
http://www.rmavp.com/facts-about-old-video-tape-deterioration-why-you-should-transfer-and-convert-now/
http://www.tech-faq.com/how-long-vhs-tapes-last.html
http://www.ebay.com.au/gds/How-Long-Do-VHS-Tapes-Last-/10000000178626983/g.html
etc., etc.,
Not only do those links recommend transferring to recordable DVDs,
which are known to fail much sooner than the VHS tapes have,
really? I wouldn't want to put my money on it
http://thexlab.com/faqs/opticalmedialongevity.html#Anchor-What-35882
"Only 47 percent of the recordable DVDs tested indicated an estimated
life expectancy beyond 15 years. Some had a predicted life expectancy
as short as 1.9 years."
I know already that my own VHS tapes have beat that.
I'm surprised. I seem to recall that TDK were suggesting 100 years for
their Gold DVD's
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by felix
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
but
they mainly refer to damage resulting from poor storage conditions.
The last link address magnetic degradation as "VHS Remanence Decay",
"There is no exact measurement for how remanence decay occurs, but
it is a gradual process that affects all VHS tapes over time."
As I've said, I assume this time is too long for me to worry about,
and this doesn't provide any evidence to the contrary.
but I wasn't addressing your situation specifically, or even replying to you
OK, but if you don't want others to add their own comments to the
discussion, then I suggest you use Email instead (if Clocky would
allow).
of course you can add your comments. it's a public forum. but it just
seemed that you were taking my remarks as referring specifically to your
situation. I probably read too much into it
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
I think what you posted was very relevant to what you've been
discussing with me anyway.
unfortunately I don't remember what I've posted ten minutes after I've
posted it, lol..
--
"Multiculturanism equals white ethnocide"
http://thereligionofpeace.com
http://www.barenakedislam.com/
http://www.siotw.org
Computer Nerd Kev
2017-03-20 07:30:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by felix
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by felix
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by felix
Post by Clocky
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by felix
well without going into all of that, I just suggest you don't count on
the images on your tapes remaining unchanged over time.
_without_ going into all of that? How can you know what to count on
if you don't look into the technicalities behind it? Surely then
you couldn't trust any recording medium.
He doesn't. He believes he can see colour and clarity differences
between same spec HDMI cables (between cheap and audiophool type gear)
and even between material recorded on different brands of blank DVD media.
IMO the "changes" people perceive in VHS quality can simply be put
down to how the perceive the image to have changed simply because they
are now comparing it to DVD and BluRay image quality and viewing it on
LCD screens.
Yeah, it looks pretty shithouse now, but back in the day the same
shithouse was all there was :-)
never let the facts get in the way of a good story, dickhead..
http://www.rmavp.com/facts-about-old-video-tape-deterioration-why-you-should-transfer-and-convert-now/
http://www.tech-faq.com/how-long-vhs-tapes-last.html
http://www.ebay.com.au/gds/How-Long-Do-VHS-Tapes-Last-/10000000178626983/g.html
etc., etc.,
Not only do those links recommend transferring to recordable DVDs,
which are known to fail much sooner than the VHS tapes have,
really? I wouldn't want to put my money on it
http://thexlab.com/faqs/opticalmedialongevity.html#Anchor-What-35882
"Only 47 percent of the recordable DVDs tested indicated an estimated
life expectancy beyond 15 years. Some had a predicted life expectancy
as short as 1.9 years."
I know already that my own VHS tapes have beat that.
I'm surprised. I seem to recall that TDK were suggesting 100 years for
their Gold DVD's
From memory, the gold in the metalic layer is to stop it from
oxidising. However it doesn't prevent the organic layer from
decaying, which is another key point of failure.

There's a format called M-DISC that records the data on an inorganic
medium, as such it should last very much longer (1,000 years according
to the manufacturers, maybe that means 150 :) ). It doesn't stop them
getting scratched though - which is what tends to happen if someone
like me is inclined to use them often. They can be burned with
compatible Blu-Ray and DVD burners.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-DISC
--
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Jeßus
2017-03-11 20:41:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by felix
well without going into all of that, I just suggest you don't count on
the images on your tapes remaining unchanged over time.
_without_ going into all of that?
LOL.
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
How can you know what to count on
if you don't look into the technicalities behind it? Surely then
you couldn't trust any recording medium.
Indeed. There is no ideal recording medium, they all have their strong
and weak points. IMO degradation of tape tends to be overstated
somewhat in my experience.
Clocky
2017-03-12 01:47:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jeßus
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by felix
well without going into all of that, I just suggest you don't count on
the images on your tapes remaining unchanged over time.
_without_ going into all of that?
LOL.
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
How can you know what to count on
if you don't look into the technicalities behind it? Surely then
you couldn't trust any recording medium.
Indeed. There is no ideal recording medium, they all have their strong
and weak points. IMO degradation of tape tends to be overstated
somewhat in my experience.
Agreed. I think a lot of it depends on how the medium is stored and it's
more the physical damage caused by that to the medium rather than any
magnetic degradation.

That's the conclusion I've come to from experience with vintage stuff
over a long period of time.
Trevor
2017-03-12 02:37:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Clocky
Agreed. I think a lot of it depends on how the medium is stored and it's
more the physical damage caused by that to the medium rather than any
magnetic degradation.
That's the conclusion I've come to from experience with vintage stuff
over a long period of time.
So don't you consider print through to be "magnetic degradation", or
don't you believe it exists despite much proof to the contrary?

Trevor.
Computer Nerd Kev
2017-03-12 22:11:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Agreed. I think a lot of it depends on how the medium is stored and it's
more the physical damage caused by that to the medium rather than any
magnetic degradation.
That's the conclusion I've come to from experience with vintage stuff
over a long period of time.
So don't you consider print through to be "magnetic degradation", or
don't you believe it exists despite much proof to the contrary?
Interesting, I hadn't heard of "Print Through", though the Wikipedia
page indicates that it may have less of an effect on video than on
audio tapes:

"Since analog video is recorded by frequency-modulation of the video
signal, the FM capture effect shields the signal against this noise;
however, the linear audio and (depending on format) chrominance
signals of a video cassette may have some print effects."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Print-through

VHS tape may also be thicker than audio cassette tape:

C90 Audio Cassette (apparantly most affected by Print Through:
0.0112mm

C60 Audio Cassette:
0.016mm

T120 VHS Cassette:
0.019mm

T168 VHS Cassette:
0.0156mm

T210 is 0.0124mm though, so home recordings made on long tapes may
be more susceptible than the (usually shorter) commercial tapes.

http://en.wikiaudio.org/Audio_tape_length_and_thickness
http://www.geocities.ws/columbiaisa/camcord_media_vhs.htm
--
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Trevor
2017-03-13 08:47:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Agreed. I think a lot of it depends on how the medium is stored and it's
more the physical damage caused by that to the medium rather than any
magnetic degradation.
That's the conclusion I've come to from experience with vintage stuff
over a long period of time.
So don't you consider print through to be "magnetic degradation", or
don't you believe it exists despite much proof to the contrary?
Interesting, I hadn't heard of "Print Through", though the Wikipedia
page indicates that it may have less of an effect on video than on
"Since analog video is recorded by frequency-modulation of the video
signal, the FM capture effect shields the signal against this noise;
however, the linear audio and (depending on format) chrominance
signals of a video cassette may have some print effects."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Print-through
0.0112mm
0.016mm
0.019mm
0.0156mm
T210 is 0.0124mm though, so home recordings made on long tapes may
be more susceptible than the (usually shorter) commercial tapes.
http://en.wikiaudio.org/Audio_tape_length_and_thickness
http://www.geocities.ws/columbiaisa/camcord_media_vhs.htm
Well this is all correct to a fair degree, however "magnetic
degradation" obviously includes all magnetic media. It's true audio is
the worst for print through, and not just cassettes, even if it is true
the thinner tape the worse the problem in most cases. Magnetic and
physical degradation is still a problem for things like floppy disks
however despite not having print through problems as such, and having
error correcting redundancy formats to minimise errors, it is still easy
to lose data the longer they are stored, especially if it is not in a
temperature and humidity controlled environment. All archival magnetic
media is carefully stored in a controlled environment for that reason.
However it's true the physical backing is usually more the problem with
temp and humidity changes. I'm not sure there is much point arguing over
which part of the magnetic media is the bigger problem however if one
still suffers actual quality loss for analog formats, or data loss for
digital formats over time. Even simple things like tape stretch, edge
curl, and surface ripple create enough problems, rather pointless
pretending they don't, or dismissing them because they are mechanical
rather than magnetic. The problems remain regardless.

And I haven't even mentioned a further magnetic problem caused by
playing tapes where heads, capstans, and metal guide rails can have a
degree of magnetisation and affect any tape played on the machine, with
the problem being cumulative with every play. Similar to continually
playing a phono record with a worn needle, the damage is irreversable.
Once again the problem is probably worse for linear audio tracks
however, but any change to the magnetic domains must have some effect.
Obviously this is not a "storage" problem as such, but most magnetic
media has been played, and if it has, one does not often know exactly
the state of repair of the machine used for every play.

Trevor.
Computer Nerd Kev
2017-03-13 22:16:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Agreed. I think a lot of it depends on how the medium is stored and it's
more the physical damage caused by that to the medium rather than any
magnetic degradation.
That's the conclusion I've come to from experience with vintage stuff
over a long period of time.
So don't you consider print through to be "magnetic degradation", or
don't you believe it exists despite much proof to the contrary?
Interesting, I hadn't heard of "Print Through", though the Wikipedia
page indicates that it may have less of an effect on video than on
"Since analog video is recorded by frequency-modulation of the video
signal, the FM capture effect shields the signal against this noise;
however, the linear audio and (depending on format) chrominance
signals of a video cassette may have some print effects."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Print-through
[snip]
Well this is all correct to a fair degree, however "magnetic
degradation" obviously includes all magnetic media. It's true audio is
the worst for print through, and not just cassettes, even if it is true
the thinner tape the worse the problem in most cases. Magnetic and
physical degradation is still a problem for things like floppy disks
however despite not having print through problems as such, and having
error correcting redundancy formats to minimise errors, it is still easy
to lose data the longer they are stored, especially if it is not in a
temperature and humidity controlled environment. All archival magnetic
media is carefully stored in a controlled environment for that reason.
However it's true the physical backing is usually more the problem with
temp and humidity changes. I'm not sure there is much point arguing over
which part of the magnetic media is the bigger problem however if one
still suffers actual quality loss for analog formats, or data loss for
digital formats over time. Even simple things like tape stretch, edge
curl, and surface ripple create enough problems, rather pointless
pretending they don't, or dismissing them because they are mechanical
rather than magnetic. The problems remain regardless.
Honestly, my only real concern is whether the commercial tapes that
I own will become unwatchable any time soon while sitting indoors
and being watched once a year at the most. So far I've been pretty
convinced that they won't, and from looking into the claimed risks
posed by magnetic degradation, I'm still pretty convinced (though
admittedly a little less so than before) that they will last.
Post by Trevor
And I haven't even mentioned a further magnetic problem caused by
playing tapes where heads, capstans, and metal guide rails can have a
degree of magnetisation and affect any tape played on the machine, with
the problem being cumulative with every play. Similar to continually
playing a phono record with a worn needle, the damage is irreversable.
Once again the problem is probably worse for linear audio tracks
however, but any change to the magnetic domains must have some effect.
Obviously this is not a "storage" problem as such, but most magnetic
media has been played, and if it has, one does not often know exactly
the state of repair of the machine used for every play.
The mechanical side of things I was already aware of (as would be
anyone who ws aquainted with the services of video rental stores).
My concern is whether they will be significantly affected by less
controllable factors. That said, I wouldn't go to the trouble of
transferring them all to HDD (or HDDs, because they have been known
to be much less reliable than tapes), so maybe it's a moot point
anyway.
--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#
Trevor
2017-03-14 03:24:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
That said, I wouldn't go to the trouble of
transferring them all to HDD
Me either, but only because *very few* are worth the effort involved.
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
(or HDDs, because they have been known to be much less reliable
than tapes), so maybe it's a moot point anyway.
No. With digital you can have as many back-ups as needed, and transfer
them as often as necessary without further degradation. Something you
simply cannot do with any analog media.

Trevor.
Computer Nerd Kev
2017-03-14 21:54:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
That said, I wouldn't go to the trouble of
transferring them all to HDD
Me either, but only because *very few* are worth the effort involved.
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
(or HDDs, because they have been known to be much less reliable
than tapes), so maybe it's a moot point anyway.
No. With digital you can have as many back-ups as needed, and transfer
them as often as necessary without further degradation. Something you
simply cannot do with any analog media.
Having to make backups because the medium itself (Hard Disks) is
less reliable is half of the effort. Especially because some HDD
models of old have been known to "stick" and fail to spin up after
being left unused for a long time, so I'd have to keep checking
them as well. I know, I could use data backup tapes! Wait, have I
just gone full circle...? :)
--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#
Clocky
2017-03-15 00:45:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
That said, I wouldn't go to the trouble of
transferring them all to HDD
Me either, but only because *very few* are worth the effort involved.
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
(or HDDs, because they have been known to be much less reliable
than tapes), so maybe it's a moot point anyway.
No. With digital you can have as many back-ups as needed, and transfer
them as often as necessary without further degradation. Something you
simply cannot do with any analog media.
Having to make backups because the medium itself (Hard Disks) is
less reliable is half of the effort. Especially because some HDD
models of old have been known to "stick" and fail to spin up after
being left unused for a long time, so I'd have to keep checking
them as well.
Not only that, but formats, interfaces, operating systems and codecs or
become obsolete change which can complicate matters.

I know, I could use data backup tapes! Wait, have I
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
just gone full circle...? :)
Some of my old Backup DVD's and CD's are unreadable after a few years
kept in temperature stable dry conditions whilst I have home recorded
audio and video cassettes that are 30+ years old kept in less than ideal
storage that still work perfectly.

I think the biggest risk to those are the players chewing up the tapes.
Trevor
2017-03-15 14:27:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Clocky
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
That said, I wouldn't go to the trouble of
transferring them all to HDD
Me either, but only because *very few* are worth the effort involved.
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
(or HDDs, because they have been known to be much less reliable
than tapes), so maybe it's a moot point anyway.
No. With digital you can have as many back-ups as needed, and transfer
them as often as necessary without further degradation. Something you
simply cannot do with any analog media.
Having to make backups because the medium itself (Hard Disks) is
less reliable is half of the effort. Especially because some HDD
models of old have been known to "stick" and fail to spin up after
being left unused for a long time, so I'd have to keep checking
them as well.
Not only that, but formats, interfaces, operating systems and codecs or
become obsolete change which can complicate matters.
Right, and Beta/VHS players will never become obsolete of course. Oh
wait, they already are!
Post by Clocky
Some of my old Backup DVD's and CD's are unreadable after a few years
kept in temperature stable dry conditions whilst I have home recorded
audio and video cassettes that are 30+ years old kept in less than ideal
storage that still work perfectly.
I still have some Phillips format video tapes. Try finding a player for
those now! Also some Umatic tapes. You can find players for those, but
it would be hard to justify the cost!

But one thing you should remember is that audio and video data files are
often recoverable where program files would not be. One bit error on a
program and it's toast. Not so with AV files if you know how to read
them. It CAN be done, I've done it many times with only minor glitches
to the audio or video stream from "faulty" DVD's. I get more glitches
from nearly every video tape!
Post by Clocky
I think the biggest risk to those are the players chewing up the tapes.
Dead right. Belts are the first to decay, and tapes get chewed. Then you
can't splice the video tape either because the rotating heads get
destroyed by the join. New heads are astronomical replacement cost, if
you can even find them any more.

Trevor.
Clocky
2017-03-16 11:52:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
That said, I wouldn't go to the trouble of
transferring them all to HDD
Me either, but only because *very few* are worth the effort involved.
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
(or HDDs, because they have been known to be much less reliable
than tapes), so maybe it's a moot point anyway.
No. With digital you can have as many back-ups as needed, and transfer
them as often as necessary without further degradation. Something you
simply cannot do with any analog media.
Having to make backups because the medium itself (Hard Disks) is
less reliable is half of the effort. Especially because some HDD
models of old have been known to "stick" and fail to spin up after
being left unused for a long time, so I'd have to keep checking
them as well.
Not only that, but formats, interfaces, operating systems and codecs or
become obsolete change which can complicate matters.
Right, and Beta/VHS players will never become obsolete of course. Oh
wait, they already are!
How long did that take? The medium remains intact in any event, much
more reliably then digital formats.
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Some of my old Backup DVD's and CD's are unreadable after a few years
kept in temperature stable dry conditions whilst I have home recorded
audio and video cassettes that are 30+ years old kept in less than ideal
storage that still work perfectly.
I still have some Phillips format video tapes. Try finding a player for
those now! Also some Umatic tapes. You can find players for those, but
it would be hard to justify the cost!
Try finding a working Zip disk reader, floptical or or 2.88mb floppy
disk drive.
Post by Trevor
But one thing you should remember is that audio and video data files are
often recoverable where program files would not be. One bit error on a
program and it's toast.
That's not so, I've recovered data damaged data cassettes and disk
drives and even repaired the recovered data using disk sector editors
and hex editors and specialised disk recovery tools. You just have to
know what you are doing. Recovering data from a DVD is no different to
recovering video or audio.

Not so with AV files if you know how to read
Post by Trevor
them. It CAN be done, I've done it many times with only minor glitches
to the audio or video stream from "faulty" DVD's.
Hasn't everyone?


I get more glitches
Post by Trevor
from nearly every video tape!
You need better equipment.
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
I think the biggest risk to those are the players chewing up the tapes.
Dead right. Belts are the first to decay, and tapes get chewed. Then you
can't splice the video tape either because the rotating heads get
destroyed by the join. New heads are astronomical replacement cost, if
you can even find them any more.
You're exaggerating and a direct drive VHS player is an obvious solution.
Trevor
2017-03-17 04:08:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Clocky
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
That said, I wouldn't go to the trouble of
transferring them all to HDD
Me either, but only because *very few* are worth the effort involved.
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
(or HDDs, because they have been known to be much less reliable
than tapes), so maybe it's a moot point anyway.
No. With digital you can have as many back-ups as needed, and transfer
them as often as necessary without further degradation. Something you
simply cannot do with any analog media.
Having to make backups because the medium itself (Hard Disks) is
less reliable is half of the effort. Especially because some HDD
models of old have been known to "stick" and fail to spin up after
being left unused for a long time, so I'd have to keep checking
them as well.
Not only that, but formats, interfaces, operating systems and codecs or
become obsolete change which can complicate matters.
Right, and Beta/VHS players will never become obsolete of course. Oh
wait, they already are!
How long did that take? The medium remains intact in any event, much
more reliably then digital formats.
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Some of my old Backup DVD's and CD's are unreadable after a few years
kept in temperature stable dry conditions whilst I have home recorded
audio and video cassettes that are 30+ years old kept in less than ideal
storage that still work perfectly.
I still have some Phillips format video tapes. Try finding a player for
those now! Also some Umatic tapes. You can find players for those, but
it would be hard to justify the cost!
Try finding a working Zip disk reader, floptical or or 2.88mb floppy
disk drive.
Exactly, but one MUST transfer your data when these things become
obsolete, BEFORE your device stops working. This of course is a lossless
process, unlike any analog format. Any data you can't be bothered
transferring is obviously not considered a loss.
Post by Clocky
Post by Trevor
But one thing you should remember is that audio and video data files are
often recoverable where program files would not be. One bit error on a
program and it's toast.
That's not so, I've recovered data damaged data cassettes and disk
drives and even repaired the recovered data using disk sector editors
and hex editors and specialised disk recovery tools. You just have to
know what you are doing. Recovering data from a DVD is no different to
recovering video or audio.
Pity you didn't read what I wrote!! One bit error that cannot be
recovered IS a HUGE problem for a program file. But NOT a problem at all
for a video file as I already stated!!!
Post by Clocky
Post by Trevor
Not so with AV files if you know how to read
them. It CAN be done, I've done it many times with only minor glitches
to the audio or video stream from "faulty" DVD's.
Hasn't everyone?
So why did you say "they are unreadable after a few years"?
Just more BS?
Post by Clocky
I get more glitches
Post by Trevor
from nearly every video tape!
You need better equipment.
Yeah sadly the thousands I spent on VHS players and tapes was not enough
to get "better equipment", if such ever existed.
Post by Clocky
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
I think the biggest risk to those are the players chewing up the tapes.
Dead right. Belts are the first to decay, and tapes get chewed. Then you
can't splice the video tape either because the rotating heads get
destroyed by the join. New heads are astronomical replacement cost, if
you can even find them any more.
You're exaggerating
Sadly I wish I was.
Post by Clocky
and a direct drive VHS player is an obvious solution.
I've never seen a VHS player without any belts or gears. And all direct
drive audio tape players still fail even if the motors usually last
longer than belts.

Trevor.
Clocky
2017-03-17 04:41:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
That said, I wouldn't go to the trouble of
transferring them all to HDD
Me either, but only because *very few* are worth the effort involved.
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
(or HDDs, because they have been known to be much less reliable
than tapes), so maybe it's a moot point anyway.
No. With digital you can have as many back-ups as needed, and transfer
them as often as necessary without further degradation. Something you
simply cannot do with any analog media.
Having to make backups because the medium itself (Hard Disks) is
less reliable is half of the effort. Especially because some HDD
models of old have been known to "stick" and fail to spin up after
being left unused for a long time, so I'd have to keep checking
them as well.
Not only that, but formats, interfaces, operating systems and codecs or
become obsolete change which can complicate matters.
Right, and Beta/VHS players will never become obsolete of course. Oh
wait, they already are!
How long did that take? The medium remains intact in any event, much
more reliably then digital formats.
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Some of my old Backup DVD's and CD's are unreadable after a few years
kept in temperature stable dry conditions whilst I have home recorded
audio and video cassettes that are 30+ years old kept in less than ideal
storage that still work perfectly.
I still have some Phillips format video tapes. Try finding a player for
those now! Also some Umatic tapes. You can find players for those, but
it would be hard to justify the cost!
Try finding a working Zip disk reader, floptical or or 2.88mb floppy
disk drive.
Exactly, but one MUST transfer your data when these things become
obsolete, BEFORE your device stops working.
This of course is a lossless
Post by Trevor
process, unlike any analog format.
Unsupported codecs will need recoding, assuming you can even access and
deal with the data easily.


Any data you can't be bothered
Post by Trevor
transferring is obviously not considered a loss.
Each extra process increases the chances of loss of data.
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Post by Trevor
But one thing you should remember is that audio and video data files are
often recoverable where program files would not be. One bit error on a
program and it's toast.
That's not so, I've recovered data damaged data cassettes and disk
drives and even repaired the recovered data using disk sector editors
and hex editors and specialised disk recovery tools. You just have to
know what you are doing. Recovering data from a DVD is no different to
recovering video or audio.
Pity you didn't read what I wrote!! One bit error that cannot be
recovered IS a HUGE problem for a program file. But NOT a problem at all
for a video file as I already stated!!!
It's not a huge problem if you know what you are doing AS I STATED.
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Post by Trevor
Not so with AV files if you know how to read
them. It CAN be done, I've done it many times with only minor glitches
to the audio or video stream from "faulty" DVD's.
Hasn't everyone?
So why did you say "they are unreadable after a few years"?
Just more BS?
Because an unreadable disc is unreadable and unrecoverable.
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
I get more glitches
Post by Trevor
from nearly every video tape!
You need better equipment.
Yeah sadly the thousands I spent on VHS players and tapes was not enough
to get "better equipment", if such ever existed.
You are seriously overstating problems for effect IMO.
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
I think the biggest risk to those are the players chewing up the tapes.
Dead right. Belts are the first to decay, and tapes get chewed. Then you
can't splice the video tape either because the rotating heads get
destroyed by the join. New heads are astronomical replacement cost, if
you can even find them any more.
You're exaggerating
Sadly I wish I was.
You are based on my experience.
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
and a direct drive VHS player is an obvious solution.
I've never seen a VHS player without any belts or gears. And all direct
drive audio tape players still fail even if the motors usually last
longer than belts.
Keep clutching those straws Trevor.

I haven't had nearly as many issues with the reliability and
recoverability of analog material as I have dealing with dead and
obsolete drives, obsolete formats and codecs and failed CD/DVD media.
felix
2017-03-19 02:42:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
That said, I wouldn't go to the trouble of
transferring them all to HDD
Me either, but only because *very few* are worth the effort involved.
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
(or HDDs, because they have been known to be much less reliable
than tapes), so maybe it's a moot point anyway.
No. With digital you can have as many back-ups as needed, and transfer
them as often as necessary without further degradation. Something you
simply cannot do with any analog media.
Having to make backups because the medium itself (Hard Disks) is
less reliable is half of the effort. Especially because some HDD
models of old have been known to "stick" and fail to spin up after
being left unused for a long time, so I'd have to keep checking
them as well.
Not only that, but formats, interfaces, operating systems and codecs or
become obsolete change which can complicate matters.
Right, and Beta/VHS players will never become obsolete of course. Oh
wait, they already are!
How long did that take? The medium remains intact in any event, much
more reliably then digital formats.
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Some of my old Backup DVD's and CD's are unreadable after a few years
kept in temperature stable dry conditions whilst I have home recorded
audio and video cassettes that are 30+ years old kept in less than ideal
storage that still work perfectly.
I still have some Phillips format video tapes. Try finding a player for
those now! Also some Umatic tapes. You can find players for those, but
it would be hard to justify the cost!
Try finding a working Zip disk reader, floptical or or 2.88mb floppy
disk drive.
Exactly, but one MUST transfer your data when these things become
obsolete, BEFORE your device stops working. This of course is a
lossless process, unlike any analog format. Any data you can't be
bothered transferring is obviously not considered a loss.
Post by Clocky
Post by Trevor
But one thing you should remember is that audio and video data files are
often recoverable where program files would not be. One bit error on a
program and it's toast.
That's not so, I've recovered data damaged data cassettes and disk
drives and even repaired the recovered data using disk sector editors
and hex editors and specialised disk recovery tools. You just have to
know what you are doing. Recovering data from a DVD is no different to
recovering video or audio.
Pity you didn't read what I wrote!! One bit error that cannot be
recovered IS a HUGE problem for a program file. But NOT a problem at
all for a video file as I already stated!!!
Post by Clocky
Post by Trevor
Not so with AV files if you know how to read
them. It CAN be done, I've done it many times with only minor glitches
to the audio or video stream from "faulty" DVD's.
Hasn't everyone?
So why did you say "they are unreadable after a few years"?
Just more BS?
Post by Clocky
I get more glitches
Post by Trevor
from nearly every video tape!
You need better equipment.
Yeah sadly the thousands I spent on VHS players and tapes was not
enough to get "better equipment", if such ever existed.
I'll never forget my joy when VCR's came out with cordless remotes, and
there was no longer a need to have that cable stretching across the
living room floor, lol! and remember the old VCR's that had no memory
backup battery, and anytime you lost power they had to be completely
reprogrammed?. Akai weren't they? what a pain they were
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
I think the biggest risk to those are the players chewing up the tapes.
Dead right. Belts are the first to decay, and tapes get chewed. Then you
can't splice the video tape either because the rotating heads get
destroyed by the join. New heads are astronomical replacement cost, if
you can even find them any more.
You're exaggerating
Sadly I wish I was.
Post by Clocky
and a direct drive VHS player is an obvious solution.
I've never seen a VHS player without any belts or gears.
me neither
Post by Trevor
And all direct drive audio tape players still fail even if the motors
usually last longer than belts.
Trevor.
--
http://thereligionofpeace.com
http://www.barenakedislam.com/
http://www.siotw.org
felix
2017-03-19 02:36:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Clocky
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
That said, I wouldn't go to the trouble of
transferring them all to HDD
Me either, but only because *very few* are worth the effort involved.
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
(or HDDs, because they have been known to be much less reliable
than tapes), so maybe it's a moot point anyway.
No. With digital you can have as many back-ups as needed, and transfer
them as often as necessary without further degradation. Something you
simply cannot do with any analog media.
Having to make backups because the medium itself (Hard Disks) is
less reliable is half of the effort. Especially because some HDD
models of old have been known to "stick" and fail to spin up after
being left unused for a long time, so I'd have to keep checking
them as well.
Not only that, but formats, interfaces, operating systems and codecs or
become obsolete change which can complicate matters.
Right, and Beta/VHS players will never become obsolete of course. Oh
wait, they already are!
How long did that take? The medium remains intact in any event, much
more reliably then digital formats.
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Some of my old Backup DVD's and CD's are unreadable after a few years
kept in temperature stable dry conditions whilst I have home recorded
audio and video cassettes that are 30+ years old kept in less than ideal
storage that still work perfectly.
I still have some Phillips format video tapes. Try finding a player for
those now! Also some Umatic tapes. You can find players for those, but
it would be hard to justify the cost!
Try finding a working Zip disk reader,
I have several; read and write
Post by Clocky
floptical or or 2.88mb floppy disk drive.
Post by Trevor
But one thing you should remember is that audio and video data files are
often recoverable where program files would not be. One bit error on a
program and it's toast.
That's not so, I've recovered data damaged data cassettes and disk
drives and even repaired the recovered data using disk sector editors
and hex editors and specialised disk recovery tools. You just have to
know what you are doing. Recovering data from a DVD is no different to
recovering video or audio.
Not so with AV files if you know how to read
Post by Trevor
them. It CAN be done, I've done it many times with only minor glitches
to the audio or video stream from "faulty" DVD's.
Hasn't everyone?
I get more glitches
Post by Trevor
from nearly every video tape!
You need better equipment.
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
I think the biggest risk to those are the players chewing up the tapes.
Dead right. Belts are the first to decay, and tapes get chewed. Then you
can't splice the video tape either because the rotating heads get
destroyed by the join. New heads are astronomical replacement cost, if
you can even find them any more.
You're exaggerating and a direct drive VHS player is an obvious solution.
--
http://thereligionofpeace.com
http://www.barenakedislam.com/
http://www.siotw.org
BruceS
2017-03-19 21:04:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by felix
Post by Clocky
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
That said, I wouldn't go to the trouble of
transferring them all to HDD
Me either, but only because *very few* are worth the effort involved.
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
(or HDDs, because they have been known to be much less reliable
than tapes), so maybe it's a moot point anyway.
No. With digital you can have as many back-ups as needed, and transfer
them as often as necessary without further degradation. Something you
simply cannot do with any analog media.
Having to make backups because the medium itself (Hard Disks) is
less reliable is half of the effort. Especially because some HDD
models of old have been known to "stick" and fail to spin up after
being left unused for a long time, so I'd have to keep checking
them as well.
Not only that, but formats, interfaces, operating systems and codecs or
become obsolete change which can complicate matters.
Right, and Beta/VHS players will never become obsolete of course. Oh
wait, they already are!
How long did that take? The medium remains intact in any event, much
more reliably then digital formats.
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Some of my old Backup DVD's and CD's are unreadable after a few years
kept in temperature stable dry conditions whilst I have home recorded
audio and video cassettes that are 30+ years old kept in less than ideal
storage that still work perfectly.
I still have some Phillips format video tapes. Try finding a player for
those now! Also some Umatic tapes. You can find players for those, but
it would be hard to justify the cost!
Try finding a working Zip disk reader,
I have several; read and write
Post by Clocky
floptical or or 2.88mb floppy disk drive.
Post by Trevor
But one thing you should remember is that audio and video data files are
often recoverable where program files would not be. One bit error on a
program and it's toast.
As a software developer, I can tell you that this is absolutely not
absolutely true. Flipping one bit *could* be fatal to an executable,
or it could have little to no effect. Theoretically, it could even
improve the program, though I don't recommend random bit-flipping as
any sort of bug-fix strategy.

All this talk of obsolete formats reminded me that I have some old
Travan TR-1 backup tapes. One is still in its wrapper, so I know that
has no value, two others are marked as full backups from 1998, and
another three are opened but unlabeled. I have no idea what's on
these, other than whatever I felt 19 years ago was worth backing up. I
also don't know where the drive is, if I still have it. I just have to
assume that anything I haven't wanted in that long is probably not
worth much trouble trying to recover. Each tape holds an amazing 400MB
(800MB compressed with their rather optimistic estimate of compression).

I also recently brought back to life an old PC that uses EIDE drives.
My current desktop won't even take those, only having SATA connectors.
I have very limited options getting data from the one to the other.
Here again the storage limits are laughable in today's terms. The
biggest EIDE drive I have is 80GB, while I have a 256GB thumb drive.

I also still have a few 3.5" floppies ("stiffies"), which I could read
on the old machine, and then transfer to the new if there's any value
to it. That's a big "if". Even all these old CDs I have for software
are of little likely value, since anything coming on a CD probably runs
on an obsolete OS. There are a few backups mixed in with those, but
those are also likely worthless, as I'd copy from one hard drive to
another when upgrading.
felix
2017-03-20 02:42:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by BruceS
Post by felix
Post by Clocky
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
That said, I wouldn't go to the trouble of
transferring them all to HDD
Me either, but only because *very few* are worth the effort involved.
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
(or HDDs, because they have been known to be much less reliable
than tapes), so maybe it's a moot point anyway.
No. With digital you can have as many back-ups as needed, and transfer
them as often as necessary without further degradation.
Something you
simply cannot do with any analog media.
Having to make backups because the medium itself (Hard Disks) is
less reliable is half of the effort. Especially because some HDD
models of old have been known to "stick" and fail to spin up after
being left unused for a long time, so I'd have to keep checking
them as well.
Not only that, but formats, interfaces, operating systems and codecs or
become obsolete change which can complicate matters.
Right, and Beta/VHS players will never become obsolete of course. Oh
wait, they already are!
How long did that take? The medium remains intact in any event, much
more reliably then digital formats.
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Some of my old Backup DVD's and CD's are unreadable after a few years
kept in temperature stable dry conditions whilst I have home recorded
audio and video cassettes that are 30+ years old kept in less than ideal
storage that still work perfectly.
I still have some Phillips format video tapes. Try finding a player for
those now! Also some Umatic tapes. You can find players for those, but
it would be hard to justify the cost!
Try finding a working Zip disk reader,
I have several; read and write
Post by Clocky
floptical or or 2.88mb floppy disk drive.
Post by Trevor
But one thing you should remember is that audio and video data files are
often recoverable where program files would not be. One bit error on a
program and it's toast.
As a software developer, I can tell you that this is absolutely not
absolutely true. Flipping one bit *could* be fatal to an executable,
or it could have little to no effect. Theoretically, it could even
improve the program, though I don't recommend random bit-flipping as
any sort of bug-fix strategy.
All this talk of obsolete formats reminded me that I have some old
Travan TR-1 backup tapes. One is still in its wrapper, so I know that
has no value, two others are marked as full backups from 1998, and
another three are opened but unlabeled. I have no idea what's on
these, other than whatever I felt 19 years ago was worth backing up. I
also don't know where the drive is, if I still have it. I just have to
assume that anything I haven't wanted in that long is probably not
worth much trouble trying to recover. Each tape holds an amazing 400MB
(800MB compressed with their rather optimistic estimate of compression).
I also recently brought back to life an old PC that uses EIDE drives.
My current desktop won't even take those, only having SATA connectors.
I have very limited options getting data from the one to the other.
not really, just put a card in to give you ide ports, or use an IDE to
SATA adapter. or you could use a docking station http://tinyurl.com/kwhx75u
Post by BruceS
Here again the storage limits are laughable in today's terms. The
biggest EIDE drive I have is 80GB,
I have 120Gb, 80Gb, 40Gb, and even a 10GB. I also have a 25mb HD that
still works!
Post by BruceS
while I have a 256GB thumb drive.
I also still have a few 3.5" floppies ("stiffies")
none of that dirty talk here, thank you! lol.
Post by BruceS
, which I could read
on the old machine, and then transfer to the new if there's any value
to it. That's a big "if".
I still have a 3.5 floppy drive in the current machine. even have a
5.25" drive in one PC
Post by BruceS
Even all these old CDs I have for software
are of little likely value, since anything coming on a CD probably runs
on an obsolete OS. There are a few backups mixed in with those, but
those are also likely worthless, as I'd copy from one hard drive to
another when upgrading.
--
"Multiculturanism equals white ethnocide"
http://thereligionofpeace.com
http://www.barenakedislam.com/
http://www.siotw.org
Clocky
2017-03-20 03:03:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by felix
Post by BruceS
Post by felix
Post by Clocky
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
That said, I wouldn't go to the trouble of
transferring them all to HDD
Me either, but only because *very few* are worth the effort involved.
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
(or HDDs, because they have been known to be much less reliable
than tapes), so maybe it's a moot point anyway.
No. With digital you can have as many back-ups as needed, and transfer
them as often as necessary without further degradation.
Something you
simply cannot do with any analog media.
Having to make backups because the medium itself (Hard Disks) is
less reliable is half of the effort. Especially because some HDD
models of old have been known to "stick" and fail to spin up after
being left unused for a long time, so I'd have to keep checking
them as well.
Not only that, but formats, interfaces, operating systems and codecs or
become obsolete change which can complicate matters.
Right, and Beta/VHS players will never become obsolete of course. Oh
wait, they already are!
How long did that take? The medium remains intact in any event, much
more reliably then digital formats.
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Some of my old Backup DVD's and CD's are unreadable after a few years
kept in temperature stable dry conditions whilst I have home recorded
audio and video cassettes that are 30+ years old kept in less than ideal
storage that still work perfectly.
I still have some Phillips format video tapes. Try finding a player for
those now! Also some Umatic tapes. You can find players for those, but
it would be hard to justify the cost!
Try finding a working Zip disk reader,
I have several; read and write
Post by Clocky
floptical or or 2.88mb floppy disk drive.
Post by Trevor
But one thing you should remember is that audio and video data files are
often recoverable where program files would not be. One bit error on a
program and it's toast.
As a software developer, I can tell you that this is absolutely not
absolutely true. Flipping one bit *could* be fatal to an executable,
or it could have little to no effect. Theoretically, it could even
improve the program, though I don't recommend random bit-flipping as
any sort of bug-fix strategy.
All this talk of obsolete formats reminded me that I have some old
Travan TR-1 backup tapes. One is still in its wrapper, so I know that
has no value, two others are marked as full backups from 1998, and
another three are opened but unlabeled. I have no idea what's on
these, other than whatever I felt 19 years ago was worth backing up. I
also don't know where the drive is, if I still have it. I just have to
assume that anything I haven't wanted in that long is probably not
worth much trouble trying to recover. Each tape holds an amazing 400MB
(800MB compressed with their rather optimistic estimate of compression).
I also recently brought back to life an old PC that uses EIDE drives.
My current desktop won't even take those, only having SATA connectors.
I have very limited options getting data from the one to the other.
not really, just put a card in to give you ide ports, or use an IDE to
SATA adapter. or you could use a docking station http://tinyurl.com/kwhx75u
Post by BruceS
Here again the storage limits are laughable in today's terms. The
biggest EIDE drive I have is 80GB,
I have 120Gb, 80Gb, 40Gb, and even a 10GB. I also have a 25mb HD that
still works!
I have two or three 40mb drives that still work. One MFM/RLL drive in a
portable that still works too but each time I fire it up I'm afraid it
will be it's last. Those old things don't fill you with much confidence
as they chug away.

The dodgiest drive still in regular use is in an old Compaq Armada which
I use with my EPROMmer and for diagnostics on older vehicles.

It's drive developed bad sectors 10+ years ago and I simply partitioned
them out as a temporary measure and it's remained that way since.
Post by felix
Post by BruceS
while I have a 256GB thumb drive.
I also still have a few 3.5" floppies ("stiffies")
none of that dirty talk here, thank you! lol.
Post by BruceS
, which I could read
on the old machine, and then transfer to the new if there's any value
to it. That's a big "if".
I still have a 3.5 floppy drive in the current machine. even have a
5.25" drive in one PC
I have a separate machine for that which also has a 3.5" and 5.25"
floppy. I've used it to recover and write floppies for other 8 bit
computers (like a TRS-80 model 1 for instance).
Post by felix
Post by BruceS
Even all these old CDs I have for software
are of little likely value, since anything coming on a CD probably runs
on an obsolete OS. There are a few backups mixed in with those, but
those are also likely worthless, as I'd copy from one hard drive to
another when upgrading.
Trevor
2017-03-20 03:28:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by BruceS
Post by Trevor
But one thing you should remember is that audio and video data files are
often recoverable where program files would not be. One bit error on a
program and it's toast.
As a software developer, I can tell you that this is absolutely not
absolutely true. Flipping one bit *could* be fatal to an executable,
or it could have little to no effect.
True, I should have said will probably be toast. But my point remains.
Post by BruceS
Theoretically, it could even
improve the program, though I don't recommend random bit-flipping as
any sort of bug-fix strategy.
Me either!
Post by BruceS
All this talk of obsolete formats reminded me that I have some old
Travan TR-1 backup tapes. One is still in its wrapper, so I know that
has no value, two others are marked as full backups from 1998, and
another three are opened but unlabeled. I have no idea what's on
these, other than whatever I felt 19 years ago was worth backing up. I
also don't know where the drive is, if I still have it. I just have to
assume that anything I haven't wanted in that long is probably not
worth much trouble trying to recover.
Right, the same principle Clocky is using for his video access in 19
years! :-)


Each tape holds an amazing 400MB
Post by BruceS
(800MB compressed with their rather optimistic estimate of compression).
I also recently brought back to life an old PC that uses EIDE drives.
My current desktop won't even take those, only having SATA connectors.
I have very limited options getting data from the one to the other.
Here again the storage limits are laughable in today's terms. The
biggest EIDE drive I have is 80GB, while I have a 256GB thumb drive.
Still have a 5.25" *5MB* ESDI drive and a *10MB* SCSI drive!
(NOT GB) Good for paper weights! :-)
Post by BruceS
I also still have a few 3.5" floppies ("stiffies"), which I could read
on the old machine, and then transfer to the new if there's any value
to it. That's a big "if".
I'll say. I still have plenty of 5.25" SS, DS and HD disks too. Must
throw them away one day even if I do still have drives to read them!
Like you I've never found the need to bother. :-)

Trevor.
felix
2017-03-19 02:34:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
That said, I wouldn't go to the trouble of
transferring them all to HDD
Me either, but only because *very few* are worth the effort involved.
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
(or HDDs, because they have been known to be much less reliable
than tapes), so maybe it's a moot point anyway.
No. With digital you can have as many back-ups as needed, and transfer
them as often as necessary without further degradation. Something you
simply cannot do with any analog media.
Having to make backups because the medium itself (Hard Disks) is
less reliable is half of the effort. Especially because some HDD
models of old have been known to "stick" and fail to spin up after
being left unused for a long time, so I'd have to keep checking
them as well.
Not only that, but formats, interfaces, operating systems and codecs or
become obsolete change which can complicate matters.
Right, and Beta/VHS players will never become obsolete of course. Oh
wait, they already are!
Post by Clocky
Some of my old Backup DVD's and CD's are unreadable after a few years
kept in temperature stable dry conditions whilst I have home recorded
audio and video cassettes that are 30+ years old kept in less than ideal
storage that still work perfectly.
I still have some Phillips format video tapes.
wow! memories..
Post by Trevor
Try finding a player for those now! Also some Umatic tapes. You can
find players for those, but it would be hard to justify the cost!
But one thing you should remember is that audio and video data files
are often recoverable where program files would not be. One bit error
on a program and it's toast. Not so with AV files if you know how to
read them. It CAN be done, I've done it many times with only minor
glitches to the audio or video stream from "faulty" DVD's. I get more
glitches from nearly every video tape!
Post by Clocky
I think the biggest risk to those are the players chewing up the tapes.
Dead right. Belts are the first to decay, and tapes get chewed. Then
you can't splice the video tape either because the rotating heads get
destroyed by the join. New heads are astronomical replacement cost, if
you can even find them any more.
that's why there's still a market for good clean used VCR's
Post by Trevor
Trevor.
--
http://thereligionofpeace.com
http://www.barenakedislam.com/
http://www.siotw.org
Trevor
2017-03-15 14:28:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
That said, I wouldn't go to the trouble of
transferring them all to HDD
Me either, but only because *very few* are worth the effort involved.
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
(or HDDs, because they have been known to be much less reliable
than tapes), so maybe it's a moot point anyway.
No. With digital you can have as many back-ups as needed, and transfer
them as often as necessary without further degradation. Something you
simply cannot do with any analog media.
Having to make backups because the medium itself (Hard Disks) is
less reliable is half of the effort. Especially because some HDD
models of old have been known to "stick" and fail to spin up after
being left unused for a long time, so I'd have to keep checking
them as well. I know, I could use data backup tapes! Wait, have I
just gone full circle...? :)
No, since two hard drives are far cheaper than tape, you should always
make duplicate copies on separate hard drives. Pretty unlucky to have
two drives go crook at the same time, unless you plan to leave them for
decades without ever checking/playing either of them. In which case it's
hardly worth the effort of copying the tapes in the first place! But
then the chance of you being able to play a VHS tape in a few decades is
far more remote anyway! And when was the last time you used a data tape
drive?

Trevor.
Computer Nerd Kev
2017-03-18 00:04:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
That said, I wouldn't go to the trouble of
transferring them all to HDD
Me either, but only because *very few* are worth the effort involved.
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
(or HDDs, because they have been known to be much less reliable
than tapes), so maybe it's a moot point anyway.
No. With digital you can have as many back-ups as needed, and transfer
them as often as necessary without further degradation. Something you
simply cannot do with any analog media.
Having to make backups because the medium itself (Hard Disks) is
less reliable is half of the effort. Especially because some HDD
models of old have been known to "stick" and fail to spin up after
being left unused for a long time, so I'd have to keep checking
them as well. I know, I could use data backup tapes! Wait, have I
just gone full circle...? :)
No, since two hard drives are far cheaper than tape, you should always
make duplicate copies on separate hard drives. Pretty unlucky to have
two drives go crook at the same time, unless you plan to leave them for
decades without ever checking/playing either of them. In which case it's
hardly worth the effort of copying the tapes in the first place!
I would plan to leave the backup for a long period of time without
playing it, so I'd have to get it out every so often and verify it
against the playback drive to make sure things weren't corrupted on
either. I consider that an annoyance, albeit an occasional one and
not really any more of one than if I used data backup tapes - which
was a joke for people with my sense of humor.
Post by Trevor
But then the chance of you being able to play a VHS tape in a few
decades is far more remote anyway!
I believe you can still buy a new VCR, and yet I'm sure you can
find VCRs made in 1987 that still work. I have one from around that
time and it still played last time I tried it. With my ability to
service such devices, their potential life grows far beyond the
near future.
--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#
Trevor
2017-03-18 01:02:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
That said, I wouldn't go to the trouble of
transferring them all to HDD
Me either, but only because *very few* are worth the effort involved.
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
(or HDDs, because they have been known to be much less reliable
than tapes), so maybe it's a moot point anyway.
No. With digital you can have as many back-ups as needed, and transfer
them as often as necessary without further degradation. Something you
simply cannot do with any analog media.
Having to make backups because the medium itself (Hard Disks) is
less reliable is half of the effort. Especially because some HDD
models of old have been known to "stick" and fail to spin up after
being left unused for a long time, so I'd have to keep checking
them as well. I know, I could use data backup tapes! Wait, have I
just gone full circle...? :)
No, since two hard drives are far cheaper than tape, you should always
make duplicate copies on separate hard drives. Pretty unlucky to have
two drives go crook at the same time, unless you plan to leave them for
decades without ever checking/playing either of them. In which case it's
hardly worth the effort of copying the tapes in the first place!
I would plan to leave the backup for a long period of time without
playing it, so I'd have to get it out every so often and verify it
against the playback drive to make sure things weren't corrupted on
either.
So don't use one drive for play and one as a forgotten backup. You
simply swap between drives as your player every now and then so you know
when one fails. No difference to backing up any data you don't want to lose.
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
I consider that an annoyance, albeit an occasional one and
not really any more of one than if I used data backup tapes - which
was a joke for people with my sense of humor.
Post by Trevor
But then the chance of you being able to play a VHS tape in a few
decades is far more remote anyway!
I believe you can still buy a new VCR, and yet I'm sure you can
find VCRs made in 1987 that still work.
Only if they have been serviced.
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
I have one from around that
time and it still played last time I tried it. With my ability to
service such devices, their potential life grows far beyond the
near future.
Only if you can get parts. Not something I'd bet on!
But then I have a hundred tapes I'm never going to transfer, I've
already written them off even if I can still play them at the moment. I
bet you have many you will never watch, even if you could. Far too much
else to watch now and far too little time to do it.
Just keep telling yourself you can still play them when you want, and
you'll be happy, and it won't matter that you probably can't anyway in
decades to come, assuming you even live that long!

Trevor.
Computer Nerd Kev
2017-03-18 01:48:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
That said, I wouldn't go to the trouble of
transferring them all to HDD
Me either, but only because *very few* are worth the effort involved.
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
(or HDDs, because they have been known to be much less reliable
than tapes), so maybe it's a moot point anyway.
No. With digital you can have as many back-ups as needed, and transfer
them as often as necessary without further degradation. Something you
simply cannot do with any analog media.
Having to make backups because the medium itself (Hard Disks) is
less reliable is half of the effort. Especially because some HDD
models of old have been known to "stick" and fail to spin up after
being left unused for a long time, so I'd have to keep checking
them as well. I know, I could use data backup tapes! Wait, have I
just gone full circle...? :)
No, since two hard drives are far cheaper than tape, you should always
make duplicate copies on separate hard drives. Pretty unlucky to have
two drives go crook at the same time, unless you plan to leave them for
decades without ever checking/playing either of them. In which case it's
hardly worth the effort of copying the tapes in the first place!
I would plan to leave the backup for a long period of time without
playing it, so I'd have to get it out every so often and verify it
against the playback drive to make sure things weren't corrupted on
either.
So don't use one drive for play and one as a forgotten backup. You
simply swap between drives as your player every now and then so you know
when one fails. No difference to backing up any data you don't want to lose.
Then you still need to do a verify each time to make sure that some
mechanical malfunction or software issue with the player isn't
causing corruption of videos that you only occasionally watch.
Otherwise if the other drive suffers similar corruption, or fails
outright you won't have a good original copy of everything to
restore. You could use a RAID 1 mirroring set-up such that both
drives are used at once, but then if the player software starts
corrupting files due to some bug, both drives have their data
corrupted at once. So then you need a third drive to backup the
RAID array, which has to be verified, and then we're back to the
start again.
--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#
Trevor
2017-03-18 03:30:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
That said, I wouldn't go to the trouble of
transferring them all to HDD
Me either, but only because *very few* are worth the effort involved.
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
(or HDDs, because they have been known to be much less reliable
than tapes), so maybe it's a moot point anyway.
No. With digital you can have as many back-ups as needed, and transfer
them as often as necessary without further degradation. Something you
simply cannot do with any analog media.
Having to make backups because the medium itself (Hard Disks) is
less reliable is half of the effort. Especially because some HDD
models of old have been known to "stick" and fail to spin up after
being left unused for a long time, so I'd have to keep checking
them as well. I know, I could use data backup tapes! Wait, have I
just gone full circle...? :)
No, since two hard drives are far cheaper than tape, you should always
make duplicate copies on separate hard drives. Pretty unlucky to have
two drives go crook at the same time, unless you plan to leave them for
decades without ever checking/playing either of them. In which case it's
hardly worth the effort of copying the tapes in the first place!
I would plan to leave the backup for a long period of time without
playing it, so I'd have to get it out every so often and verify it
against the playback drive to make sure things weren't corrupted on
either.
So don't use one drive for play and one as a forgotten backup. You
simply swap between drives as your player every now and then so you know
when one fails. No difference to backing up any data you don't want to lose.
Then you still need to do a verify each time to make sure that some
mechanical malfunction or software issue with the player isn't
causing corruption of videos that you only occasionally watch.
Great thing about a hard drive is that it is easy to verify the whole
drive while you are doing something else, unlike any other storage
system. Not to mention SMART monitoring will probably warn you anyway.
I always love the fact that so many people can find all the faults with
hard drive storage, whilst ignoring all the problems of their preferred
method. Just because one method is not perfect, no need to use an even
worse one! :-)

Trevor.
Computer Nerd Kev
2017-03-18 21:55:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
That said, I wouldn't go to the trouble of
transferring them all to HDD
Me either, but only because *very few* are worth the effort involved.
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
(or HDDs, because they have been known to be much less reliable
than tapes), so maybe it's a moot point anyway.
No. With digital you can have as many back-ups as needed, and transfer
them as often as necessary without further degradation. Something you
simply cannot do with any analog media.
Having to make backups because the medium itself (Hard Disks) is
less reliable is half of the effort. Especially because some HDD
models of old have been known to "stick" and fail to spin up after
being left unused for a long time, so I'd have to keep checking
them as well. I know, I could use data backup tapes! Wait, have I
just gone full circle...? :)
No, since two hard drives are far cheaper than tape, you should always
make duplicate copies on separate hard drives. Pretty unlucky to have
two drives go crook at the same time, unless you plan to leave them for
decades without ever checking/playing either of them. In which case it's
hardly worth the effort of copying the tapes in the first place!
I would plan to leave the backup for a long period of time without
playing it, so I'd have to get it out every so often and verify it
against the playback drive to make sure things weren't corrupted on
either.
So don't use one drive for play and one as a forgotten backup. You
simply swap between drives as your player every now and then so you know
when one fails. No difference to backing up any data you don't want to lose.
Then you still need to do a verify each time to make sure that some
mechanical malfunction or software issue with the player isn't
causing corruption of videos that you only occasionally watch.
Great thing about a hard drive is that it is easy to verify the whole
drive while you are doing something else, unlike any other storage
system.
Unlike any other storage system? How do you think modern data tapes
work? You just insert the cassette into the drive, tell the software
to verify, and off you go. Same thing with DVDs, CDs, floppy disks.
Post by Trevor
Not to mention SMART monitoring will probably warn you anyway.
I always love the fact that so many people can find all the faults with
hard drive storage, whilst ignoring all the problems of their preferred
method. Just because one method is not perfect, no need to use an even
worse one! :-)
You must love the fact, because you keep tying to make out that I'm
one of those people. In fact I'm saying that no method, including
HDD storage, is perfect enough to make the trouble involved in using
it an insignificant factor in me copying my VHS tapes over to it.
--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#
Trevor
2017-03-19 01:57:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
That said, I wouldn't go to the trouble of
transferring them all to HDD
Me either, but only because *very few* are worth the effort involved.
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
(or HDDs, because they have been known to be much less reliable
than tapes), so maybe it's a moot point anyway.
No. With digital you can have as many back-ups as needed, and transfer
them as often as necessary without further degradation. Something you
simply cannot do with any analog media.
Having to make backups because the medium itself (Hard Disks) is
less reliable is half of the effort. Especially because some HDD
models of old have been known to "stick" and fail to spin up after
being left unused for a long time, so I'd have to keep checking
them as well. I know, I could use data backup tapes! Wait, have I
just gone full circle...? :)
No, since two hard drives are far cheaper than tape, you should always
make duplicate copies on separate hard drives. Pretty unlucky to have
two drives go crook at the same time, unless you plan to leave them for
decades without ever checking/playing either of them. In which case it's
hardly worth the effort of copying the tapes in the first place!
I would plan to leave the backup for a long period of time without
playing it, so I'd have to get it out every so often and verify it
against the playback drive to make sure things weren't corrupted on
either.
So don't use one drive for play and one as a forgotten backup. You
simply swap between drives as your player every now and then so you know
when one fails. No difference to backing up any data you don't want to lose.
Then you still need to do a verify each time to make sure that some
mechanical malfunction or software issue with the player isn't
causing corruption of videos that you only occasionally watch.
Great thing about a hard drive is that it is easy to verify the whole
drive while you are doing something else, unlike any other storage
system.
Unlike any other storage system? How do you think modern data tapes
work? You just insert the cassette into the drive, tell the software
to verify, and off you go. Same thing with DVDs, CDs, floppy disks.
You *completely* missed my point, you can have hundreds/thousands of
video's on one hard drive, hit verify, they're all done.
Try inserting a thousand DVD's, CD's, floppy's etc and see how long long
you last. People *never* bother verifying them all because it is simply
*far* too much work!
As for "modern data tapes" it's been well over a decade since I saw a
consumer data tape drive. I certainly wouldn't go back to one!
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Not to mention SMART monitoring will probably warn you anyway.
I always love the fact that so many people can find all the faults with
hard drive storage, whilst ignoring all the problems of their preferred
method. Just because one method is not perfect, no need to use an even
worse one! :-)
You must love the fact, because you keep tying to make out that I'm
one of those people. In fact I'm saying that no method, including
HDD storage, is perfect enough to make the trouble involved in using
it an insignificant factor in me copying my VHS tapes over to it.
I agreed all along that very little is worth the trouble. Just like you
I don't really care if I can't play them in a couple of decades.
Tapes just fine for storing something you won't ever bother playing
again! :-)

Trevor.
Computer Nerd Kev
2017-03-19 21:45:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
That said, I wouldn't go to the trouble of
transferring them all to HDD
Me either, but only because *very few* are worth the effort involved.
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
(or HDDs, because they have been known to be much less reliable
than tapes), so maybe it's a moot point anyway.
No. With digital you can have as many back-ups as needed, and transfer
them as often as necessary without further degradation. Something you
simply cannot do with any analog media.
Having to make backups because the medium itself (Hard Disks) is
less reliable is half of the effort. Especially because some HDD
models of old have been known to "stick" and fail to spin up after
being left unused for a long time, so I'd have to keep checking
them as well. I know, I could use data backup tapes! Wait, have I
just gone full circle...? :)
No, since two hard drives are far cheaper than tape, you should always
make duplicate copies on separate hard drives. Pretty unlucky to have
two drives go crook at the same time, unless you plan to leave them for
decades without ever checking/playing either of them. In which case it's
hardly worth the effort of copying the tapes in the first place!
I would plan to leave the backup for a long period of time without
playing it, so I'd have to get it out every so often and verify it
against the playback drive to make sure things weren't corrupted on
either.
So don't use one drive for play and one as a forgotten backup. You
simply swap between drives as your player every now and then so you know
when one fails. No difference to backing up any data you don't want to lose.
Then you still need to do a verify each time to make sure that some
mechanical malfunction or software issue with the player isn't
causing corruption of videos that you only occasionally watch.
Great thing about a hard drive is that it is easy to verify the whole
drive while you are doing something else, unlike any other storage
system.
Unlike any other storage system? How do you think modern data tapes
work? You just insert the cassette into the drive, tell the software
to verify, and off you go. Same thing with DVDs, CDs, floppy disks.
You *completely* missed my point, you can have hundreds/thousands of
video's on one hard drive, hit verify, they're all done.
Try inserting a thousand DVD's, CD's, floppy's etc and see how long long
you last. People *never* bother verifying them all because it is simply
*far* too much work!
As for "modern data tapes" it's been well over a decade since I saw a
consumer data tape drive. I certainly wouldn't go back to one!
Ah, I didn't realise that you were only discussing "consumer" formats.
Modern tape formats could store hundreds of VHS recordings, but they're
not really consumer (though I'm not sure how you define exactly what is
"consumer"). Used server equipment can often be found cheaply and in
good order.
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Not to mention SMART monitoring will probably warn you anyway.
I always love the fact that so many people can find all the faults with
hard drive storage, whilst ignoring all the problems of their preferred
method. Just because one method is not perfect, no need to use an even
worse one! :-)
You must love the fact, because you keep tying to make out that I'm
one of those people. In fact I'm saying that no method, including
HDD storage, is perfect enough to make the trouble involved in using
it an insignificant factor in me copying my VHS tapes over to it.
I agreed all along that very little is worth the trouble.
Yes but not on the grounds of the difficulty in reliably storing the
video data.
Post by Trevor
Just like you
I don't really care if I can't play them in a couple of decades.
Tapes just fine for storing something you won't ever bother playing
again! :-)
Well I do still play them, but you've already failed to convince me
that I won't be able to within a couple of decades. If I did think
that they would all fade away, I might backup some of them, but
I don't think that there's near enough chance of that to justify
the trouble involved.
--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#
felix
2017-03-19 02:28:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Trevor
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Agreed. I think a lot of it depends on how the medium is stored and it's
more the physical damage caused by that to the medium rather than any
magnetic degradation.
That's the conclusion I've come to from experience with vintage stuff
over a long period of time.
So don't you consider print through to be "magnetic degradation", or
don't you believe it exists despite much proof to the contrary?
Interesting, I hadn't heard of "Print Through", though the Wikipedia
page indicates that it may have less of an effect on video than on
"Since analog video is recorded by frequency-modulation of the video
signal, the FM capture effect shields the signal against this noise;
however, the linear audio and (depending on format) chrominance
signals of a video cassette may have some print effects."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Print-through
0.0112mm
0.016mm
0.019mm
0.0156mm
T210 is 0.0124mm though, so home recordings made on long tapes may
be more susceptible than the (usually shorter) commercial tapes.
http://en.wikiaudio.org/Audio_tape_length_and_thickness
http://www.geocities.ws/columbiaisa/camcord_media_vhs.htm
Well this is all correct to a fair degree, however "magnetic
degradation" obviously includes all magnetic media. It's true audio is
the worst for print through, and not just cassettes, even if it is
true the thinner tape the worse the problem in most cases. Magnetic
and physical degradation is still a problem for things like floppy
disks however despite not having print through problems as such, and
having error correcting redundancy formats to minimise errors, it is
still easy to lose data the longer they are stored, especially if it
is not in a temperature and humidity controlled environment. All
archival magnetic media is carefully stored in a controlled
environment for that reason. However it's true the physical backing is
usually more the problem with temp and humidity changes. I'm not sure
there is much point arguing over which part of the magnetic media is
the bigger problem however if one still suffers actual quality loss
for analog formats, or data loss for digital formats over time. Even
simple things like tape stretch, edge curl, and surface ripple create
enough problems, rather pointless pretending they don't, or dismissing
them because they are mechanical rather than magnetic. The problems
remain regardless.
yes
Post by Trevor
And I haven't even mentioned a further magnetic problem caused by
playing tapes where heads, capstans, and metal guide rails can have a
degree of magnetisation and affect any tape played on the machine,
with the problem being cumulative with every play. Similar to
continually playing a phono record with a worn needle, the damage is
irreversable.
Once again the problem is probably worse for linear audio tracks
however, but any change to the magnetic domains must have some effect.
Obviously this is not a "storage" problem as such, but most magnetic
media has been played, and if it has, one does not often know exactly
the state of repair of the machine used for every play.
yes, demagnetization of audio/video heads and tape path components was a
required regular maintenance procedure to help prevent signal degradation

demagnetizers: http://tinyurl.com/l4pycfy
Post by Trevor
Trevor.
--
http://thereligionofpeace.com
http://www.barenakedislam.com/
http://www.siotw.org
b***@topmail.co.nz
2017-03-13 10:34:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
0.0112mm
0.016mm
0.019mm
0.0156mm
For 1/2" computer tapes, the 3480 was around 0.03 mm thick
3590 is 0.016 mm and 3590E is 0.009 mm - that is getting thin
I don't know what the old 9-track tape thickness was, but if you find
one of those 50 years old, good luck reading it...
felix
2017-03-19 02:21:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Agreed. I think a lot of it depends on how the medium is stored and it's
more the physical damage caused by that to the medium rather than any
magnetic degradation.
That's the conclusion I've come to from experience with vintage stuff
over a long period of time.
So don't you consider print through to be "magnetic degradation", or
don't you believe it exists despite much proof to the contrary?
Interesting, I hadn't heard of "Print Through", though the Wikipedia
page indicates that it may have less of an effect on video than on
yes, it's been a big problem with multiple track audio tapes
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
"Since analog video is recorded by frequency-modulation of the video
signal, the FM capture effect shields the signal against this noise;
however, the linear audio and (depending on format) chrominance
signals of a video cassette may have some print effects."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Print-through
0.0112mm
0.016mm
0.019mm
0.0156mm
T210 is 0.0124mm though, so home recordings made on long tapes may
be more susceptible than the (usually shorter) commercial tapes.
http://en.wikiaudio.org/Audio_tape_length_and_thickness
http://www.geocities.ws/columbiaisa/camcord_media_vhs.htm
--
http://thereligionofpeace.com
http://www.barenakedislam.com/
http://www.siotw.org
Computer Nerd Kev
2017-03-19 21:52:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by felix
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Agreed. I think a lot of it depends on how the medium is stored and it's
more the physical damage caused by that to the medium rather than any
magnetic degradation.
That's the conclusion I've come to from experience with vintage stuff
over a long period of time.
So don't you consider print through to be "magnetic degradation", or
don't you believe it exists despite much proof to the contrary?
Interesting, I hadn't heard of "Print Through", though the Wikipedia
page indicates that it may have less of an effect on video than on
yes, it's been a big problem with multiple track audio tapes
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
"Since analog video is recorded by frequency-modulation of the video
signal, the FM capture effect shields the signal against this noise;
however, the linear audio and (depending on format) chrominance
signals of a video cassette may have some print effects."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Print-through
0.0112mm
0.016mm
0.019mm
0.0156mm
T210 is 0.0124mm though, so home recordings made on long tapes may
be more susceptible than the (usually shorter) commercial tapes.
http://en.wikiaudio.org/Audio_tape_length_and_thickness
http://www.geocities.ws/columbiaisa/camcord_media_vhs.htm
--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#
felix
2017-03-19 02:20:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Agreed. I think a lot of it depends on how the medium is stored and it's
more the physical damage caused by that to the medium rather than any
magnetic degradation.
That's the conclusion I've come to from experience with vintage stuff
over a long period of time.
So don't you consider print through to be "magnetic degradation", or
don't you believe it exists despite much proof to the contrary?
exactly. he thinks he knows better..
Post by Trevor
Trevor.
--
http://thereligionofpeace.com
http://www.barenakedislam.com/
http://www.siotw.org
Computer Nerd Kev
2017-03-19 21:51:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by felix
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Agreed. I think a lot of it depends on how the medium is stored and it's
more the physical damage caused by that to the medium rather than any
magnetic degradation.
That's the conclusion I've come to from experience with vintage stuff
over a long period of time.
So don't you consider print through to be "magnetic degradation", or
don't you believe it exists despite much proof to the contrary?
exactly. he thinks he knows better..
And yet in your reply to what I said to Trevor's statement all you can
say is that it was a problem with audio tapes?

Presumably then, you don't know either way.
--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#
felix
2017-03-19 23:28:06 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by felix
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Agreed. I think a lot of it depends on how the medium is stored and it's
more the physical damage caused by that to the medium rather than any
magnetic degradation.
That's the conclusion I've come to from experience with vintage stuff
over a long period of time.
So don't you consider print through to be "magnetic degradation", or
don't you believe it exists despite much proof to the contrary?
exactly. he thinks he knows better..
And yet in your reply to what I said to Trevor's statement all you can
say is that it was a problem with audio tapes?
Presumably then, you don't know either way.
reorientation of the magnetic particles on AV tapes, magnetic
degradation, is a known fact. I said that right at the outset in my
first post, although I never called it 'magnetic degradation'. as has
been said it happens via 'print through', magnetization of tape path
components, etc.,
--
http://thereligionofpeace.com
http://www.barenakedislam.com/
http://www.siotw.org
Computer Nerd Kev
2017-03-20 01:41:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by felix
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by felix
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Agreed. I think a lot of it depends on how the medium is stored and it's
more the physical damage caused by that to the medium rather than any
magnetic degradation.
That's the conclusion I've come to from experience with vintage stuff
over a long period of time.
So don't you consider print through to be "magnetic degradation", or
don't you believe it exists despite much proof to the contrary?
exactly. he thinks he knows better..
And yet in your reply to what I said to Trevor's statement all you can
say is that it was a problem with audio tapes?
Presumably then, you don't know either way.
reorientation of the magnetic particles on AV tapes, magnetic
degradation, is a known fact. I said that right at the outset in my
first post, although I never called it 'magnetic degradation'. as has
been said it happens via 'print through', magnetization of tape path
components, etc.,
And as I said, and continue to say: I don't believe that it alone
will cause VHS tapes to deteriorate significantly in the next few
decades. Or even in the lifetime of anyone who was around to buy
a commercial VHS tape new.

Unless I see a good scientific experiment, or mathematical
calculation, indicating otherwise, I intend to keep this view.
--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#
Clocky
2017-03-20 04:05:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by felix
Post by Trevor
Post by Clocky
Agreed. I think a lot of it depends on how the medium is stored and it's
more the physical damage caused by that to the medium rather than any
magnetic degradation.
That's the conclusion I've come to from experience with vintage stuff
over a long period of time.
So don't you consider print through to be "magnetic degradation", or
don't you believe it exists despite much proof to the contrary?
exactly. he thinks he knows better..
Since my 35 year old tapes play just as well today as they did when I
recorded them I'm 100% sure they will outlive me and remain just as
playable.

This magnetic degradation has been severely overstated.
Trevor
2017-03-20 05:42:19 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Clocky
Since my 35 year old tapes play just as well today as they did when I
recorded them I'm 100% sure they will outlive me and remain just as
playable.
Should easily outlast your ability to play them at least!

Trevor.
Jeßus
2017-03-12 21:20:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Clocky
Post by Jeßus
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by felix
well without going into all of that, I just suggest you don't count on
the images on your tapes remaining unchanged over time.
_without_ going into all of that?
LOL.
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
How can you know what to count on
if you don't look into the technicalities behind it? Surely then
you couldn't trust any recording medium.
Indeed. There is no ideal recording medium, they all have their strong
and weak points. IMO degradation of tape tends to be overstated
somewhat in my experience.
Agreed. I think a lot of it depends on how the medium is stored and it's
more the physical damage caused by that to the medium rather than any
magnetic degradation.
Definitely.
Post by Clocky
That's the conclusion I've come to from experience with vintage stuff
over a long period of time.
I still have cassette tapes from the late 70's that sound surprisingly
good for their age, and a couple of VHS tapes from circa 1983 that
have also held up quite well.
Trevor
2017-03-12 02:33:49 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Jeßus
IMO degradation of tape tends to be overstated
somewhat in my experience.
Well "overstated somewhat" is a very subjective term, but I suggest you
ask any REAL archival library whether they think it is a problem. They
spend a lot of time dealing with the issues.

Trevor.
Jeßus
2017-03-04 06:32:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Flipping through channels last night I happened across a show
on ABC2 talking about VHS tape collectors of all things. I
guess it has to happen eventually, but I'm a bit surprised that
it has while tapes are still sitting en-mass on the shelves of
most op-shops and junk stores for prices as low as 20c.
I've been meaning to do some research on my DVDs, I have over 1000
pre-2004 DVDs and many were limited editions (or whatever you wish to
call them). I haven't watched them in who knows how long and they're
just taking up space, so might as well consider selling them.
Peter Jason
2017-03-05 23:54:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jeßus
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Flipping through channels last night I happened across a show
on ABC2 talking about VHS tape collectors of all things. I
guess it has to happen eventually, but I'm a bit surprised that
it has while tapes are still sitting en-mass on the shelves of
most op-shops and junk stores for prices as low as 20c.
I've been meaning to do some research on my DVDs, I have over 1000
pre-2004 DVDs and many were limited editions (or whatever you wish to
call them). I haven't watched them in who knows how long and they're
just taking up space, so might as well consider selling them.
I too have a large collection, of about 2500, all ensconced in an old
metal library filing cabinet. Send me a list of yours so that I can
help you by taking the best off your hands.
Jeßus
2017-03-06 05:33:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Jason
Post by Jeßus
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Flipping through channels last night I happened across a show
on ABC2 talking about VHS tape collectors of all things. I
guess it has to happen eventually, but I'm a bit surprised that
it has while tapes are still sitting en-mass on the shelves of
most op-shops and junk stores for prices as low as 20c.
I've been meaning to do some research on my DVDs, I have over 1000
pre-2004 DVDs and many were limited editions (or whatever you wish to
call them). I haven't watched them in who knows how long and they're
just taking up space, so might as well consider selling them.
I too have a large collection, of about 2500, all ensconced in an old
metal library filing cabinet. Send me a list of yours so that I can
help you by taking the best off your hands.
Yeah, right ;) I have no list anyway, and I'm not looking forward to
making one when I get around to selling them.
hector
2017-03-06 17:18:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jeßus
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Flipping through channels last night I happened across a show
on ABC2 talking about VHS tape collectors of all things. I
guess it has to happen eventually, but I'm a bit surprised that
it has while tapes are still sitting en-mass on the shelves of
most op-shops and junk stores for prices as low as 20c.
I've been meaning to do some research on my DVDs, I have over 1000
pre-2004 DVDs and many were limited editions (or whatever you wish to
call them). I haven't watched them in who knows how long and they're
just taking up space, so might as well consider selling them.
You should post a list. I'm always looking for rare gems hard to find.
You do know that it is trivally easy to copy dvds.
Peter Jason
2017-03-06 20:41:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by hector
Post by Jeßus
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Flipping through channels last night I happened across a show
on ABC2 talking about VHS tape collectors of all things. I
guess it has to happen eventually, but I'm a bit surprised that
it has while tapes are still sitting en-mass on the shelves of
most op-shops and junk stores for prices as low as 20c.
I've been meaning to do some research on my DVDs, I have over 1000
pre-2004 DVDs and many were limited editions (or whatever you wish to
call them). I haven't watched them in who knows how long and they're
just taking up space, so might as well consider selling them.
You should post a list. I'm always looking for rare gems hard to find.
You do know that it is trivally easy to copy dvds.
I don't know why he doesn't do this. I await such a list too. Nero
"Diskcopy" seems the fastest way to duplicate disks. And
"AudioLabel" is a good way to print on the platter's surface.
http://www.audiolabel.com/?reg
hector
2017-03-07 02:34:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Jason
Post by hector
Post by Jeßus
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Flipping through channels last night I happened across a show
on ABC2 talking about VHS tape collectors of all things. I
guess it has to happen eventually, but I'm a bit surprised that
it has while tapes are still sitting en-mass on the shelves of
most op-shops and junk stores for prices as low as 20c.
I've been meaning to do some research on my DVDs, I have over 1000
pre-2004 DVDs and many were limited editions (or whatever you wish to
call them). I haven't watched them in who knows how long and they're
just taking up space, so might as well consider selling them.
You should post a list. I'm always looking for rare gems hard to find.
You do know that it is trivally easy to copy dvds.
I don't know why he doesn't do this. I await such a list too. Nero
"Diskcopy" seems the fastest way to duplicate disks. And
"AudioLabel" is a good way to print on the platter's surface.
http://www.audiolabel.com/?reg
Never used Diskcopy. Never printed on one either. Pioneer had an in
burner method that I could never find anything to work with it.
These days, maybe just copying to a hard drive might be enough, maybe
some format like mkv, mainly to keep the movie together instead of
playing a sequence of VOB files. Though I never do this myself.
It is easier than anything to copy a dvd. And I doubt there have been
any new copy protection methods on dvds in years.
Peter Jason
2017-03-07 03:05:57 UTC
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Post by hector
Post by Peter Jason
Post by hector
Post by Jeßus
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Flipping through channels last night I happened across a show
on ABC2 talking about VHS tape collectors of all things. I
guess it has to happen eventually, but I'm a bit surprised that
it has while tapes are still sitting en-mass on the shelves of
most op-shops and junk stores for prices as low as 20c.
I've been meaning to do some research on my DVDs, I have over 1000
pre-2004 DVDs and many were limited editions (or whatever you wish to
call them). I haven't watched them in who knows how long and they're
just taking up space, so might as well consider selling them.
You should post a list. I'm always looking for rare gems hard to find.
You do know that it is trivally easy to copy dvds.
I don't know why he doesn't do this. I await such a list too. Nero
"Diskcopy" seems the fastest way to duplicate disks. And
"AudioLabel" is a good way to print on the platter's surface.
http://www.audiolabel.com/?reg
Never used Diskcopy. Never printed on one either. Pioneer had an in
burner method that I could never find anything to work with it.
These days, maybe just copying to a hard drive might be enough, maybe
some format like mkv, mainly to keep the movie together instead of
playing a sequence of VOB files. Though I never do this myself.
It is easier than anything to copy a dvd. And I doubt there have been
any new copy protection methods on dvds in years.
For converting & burning I use
"ConvertXtoDVD"
At:
http://www.vso-software.fr/products.php

Better than Nero because it handles subtitles.
Trevor
2017-03-07 07:43:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Jason
Post by hector
You should post a list. I'm always looking for rare gems hard to find.
You do know that it is trivally easy to copy dvds.
I don't know why he doesn't do this. I await such a list too. Nero
"Diskcopy" seems the fastest way to duplicate disks. And
"AudioLabel" is a good way to print on the platter's surface.
http://www.audiolabel.com/?reg
Have no idea why anybody would bother burning DVDR's these days when
it's quicker, easier, and just as cheap to simply copy to an external
hard drive. MUCH less physical storage space required too, and far
easier to find the movie you are looking for.
Unless you are selling illegal copies I guess.

Trevor.
Peter Jason
2017-03-07 20:37:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Trevor
Post by Peter Jason
Post by hector
You should post a list. I'm always looking for rare gems hard to find.
You do know that it is trivally easy to copy dvds.
I don't know why he doesn't do this. I await such a list too. Nero
"Diskcopy" seems the fastest way to duplicate disks. And
"AudioLabel" is a good way to print on the platter's surface.
http://www.audiolabel.com/?reg
Have no idea why anybody would bother burning DVDR's these days when
it's quicker, easier, and just as cheap to simply copy to an external
hard drive. MUCH less physical storage space required too, and far
easier to find the movie you are looking for.
Unless you are selling illegal copies I guess.
Trevor.
I have many stored on HDDs too, but I know of no way to make a PVR
accept that HDD so as to watch those movies on a large lounge-room TV.
I would need a TV that accepts a Windows10-formatted HDD. Do these
exist? The PVRs I have had all come with their own formatting
system.
Computer Nerd Kev
2017-03-07 22:07:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Jason
Post by Trevor
Have no idea why anybody would bother burning DVDR's these days when
it's quicker, easier, and just as cheap to simply copy to an external
hard drive. MUCH less physical storage space required too, and far
easier to find the movie you are looking for.
Unless you are selling illegal copies I guess.
I have many stored on HDDs too, but I know of no way to make a PVR
accept that HDD so as to watch those movies on a large lounge-room TV.
I would need a TV that accepts a Windows10-formatted HDD. Do these
exist? The PVRs I have had all come with their own formatting
system.
If a PVR accepts USB memory sticks, then it should support FAT32. New
ones should also support ExFAT. Both formats are Windows 10 compatible.

Some PVRs probably support NTFS, which is probably the closest to the
meaning of "Windows10-formatted".

You could also set up an old PC connected to the TV and use that for
playback. Or an old video game console like I did years ago (worked
well as a DVD player too until it started scratching discs a few
weeks ago).
--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#
Trevor
2017-03-08 00:19:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Peter Jason
Post by Trevor
Have no idea why anybody would bother burning DVDR's these days when
it's quicker, easier, and just as cheap to simply copy to an external
hard drive. MUCH less physical storage space required too, and far
easier to find the movie you are looking for.
Unless you are selling illegal copies I guess.
I have many stored on HDDs too, but I know of no way to make a PVR
accept that HDD so as to watch those movies on a large lounge-room TV.
I would need a TV that accepts a Windows10-formatted HDD. Do these
exist? The PVRs I have had all come with their own formatting
system.
As does mine, but can happily read and write to standard drives.
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
If a PVR accepts USB memory sticks, then it should support FAT32. New
ones should also support ExFAT. Both formats are Windows 10 compatible.
Some PVRs probably support NTFS, which is probably the closest to the
meaning of "Windows10-formatted".
Yes, I imagine his problem is his hard drive is formatted NTFS and his
PVR doesn't accept it. The simple solution is to have an external hard
drive solely for movies and format it to FAT32 if that is all your
player can handle. Any version of Windows can still read/write to FAT32.
Just make sure you don't buy 3TB drives! You won't get those to work.

Trevor.
Clocky
2017-03-08 01:10:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Peter Jason
Post by Trevor
Have no idea why anybody would bother burning DVDR's these days when
it's quicker, easier, and just as cheap to simply copy to an external
hard drive. MUCH less physical storage space required too, and far
easier to find the movie you are looking for.
Unless you are selling illegal copies I guess.
I have many stored on HDDs too, but I know of no way to make a PVR
accept that HDD so as to watch those movies on a large lounge-room TV.
I would need a TV that accepts a Windows10-formatted HDD. Do these
exist? The PVRs I have had all come with their own formatting
system.
If a PVR accepts USB memory sticks, then it should support FAT32. New
ones should also support ExFAT. Both formats are Windows 10 compatible.
Some PVRs probably support NTFS, which is probably the closest to the
meaning of "Windows10-formatted".
You could also set up an old PC connected to the TV and use that for
playback. Or an old video game console like I did years ago (worked
well as a DVD player too until it started scratching discs a few
weeks ago).
I just use a Chromecast or an old T-Box as a media player (and PVR) to
stream any movie from my main PC to the loungeroom over WiFi.
Peter Jason
2017-03-08 04:23:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Post by Peter Jason
Post by Trevor
Have no idea why anybody would bother burning DVDR's these days when
it's quicker, easier, and just as cheap to simply copy to an external
hard drive. MUCH less physical storage space required too, and far
easier to find the movie you are looking for.
Unless you are selling illegal copies I guess.
I have many stored on HDDs too, but I know of no way to make a PVR
accept that HDD so as to watch those movies on a large lounge-room TV.
I would need a TV that accepts a Windows10-formatted HDD. Do these
exist? The PVRs I have had all come with their own formatting
system.
If a PVR accepts USB memory sticks, then it should support FAT32. New
ones should also support ExFAT. Both formats are Windows 10 compatible.
Some PVRs probably support NTFS, which is probably the closest to the
meaning of "Windows10-formatted".
You could also set up an old PC connected to the TV and use that for
playback. Or an old video game console like I did years ago (worked
well as a DVD player too until it started scratching discs a few
weeks ago).
I have watched movies from a USB drive, so I'll just transfer a few
select movies over to the USB and plug this in.
hector
2017-03-08 12:48:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Jason
Post by Trevor
Post by Peter Jason
Post by hector
You should post a list. I'm always looking for rare gems hard to find.
You do know that it is trivally easy to copy dvds.
I don't know why he doesn't do this. I await such a list too. Nero
"Diskcopy" seems the fastest way to duplicate disks. And
"AudioLabel" is a good way to print on the platter's surface.
http://www.audiolabel.com/?reg
Have no idea why anybody would bother burning DVDR's these days when
it's quicker, easier, and just as cheap to simply copy to an external
hard drive. MUCH less physical storage space required too, and far
easier to find the movie you are looking for.
Unless you are selling illegal copies I guess.
Does this mean playing back the sequence of VOB files, instead of the
DVD folder structure? I have many problems with this and do prefer the
discs, players are much simpler with them. A movie that is meant to be
50p can come out as 60p which is just unacceptable, not sure if this
happens for other players or people just don't care.
I couldn't find this original post.
Post by Peter Jason
Post by Trevor
Trevor.
I have many stored on HDDs too, but I know of no way to make a PVR
accept that HDD so as to watch those movies on a large lounge-room TV.
I would need a TV that accepts a Windows10-formatted HDD. Do these
exist? The PVRs I have had all come with their own formatting
system.
What form are the files in? DVD form, or just video files?
'Windows10-formatted HDD', that would be NTFS?
Otherwise I don't understand that phrase.
I think for 'formatting' you might mean file structure that the player
likes.
If a DVD folder structure then I would only use a computer or burn to
disc, as per reasons above.
Otherwise, probably any current bluray player, mine is a Sony 780, can
play movie files from a USB connected hard drive, formatted to NTFS
usually. Still I get issues with the 50p and 60p thing and still prefer
the original disc structure working. I've never tried mkv files.
Peter Jason
2017-03-08 20:38:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by hector
Post by Peter Jason
Post by Trevor
Post by Peter Jason
Post by hector
You should post a list. I'm always looking for rare gems hard to find.
You do know that it is trivally easy to copy dvds.
I don't know why he doesn't do this. I await such a list too. Nero
"Diskcopy" seems the fastest way to duplicate disks. And
"AudioLabel" is a good way to print on the platter's surface.
http://www.audiolabel.com/?reg
Have no idea why anybody would bother burning DVDR's these days when
it's quicker, easier, and just as cheap to simply copy to an external
hard drive. MUCH less physical storage space required too, and far
easier to find the movie you are looking for.
Unless you are selling illegal copies I guess.
Does this mean playing back the sequence of VOB files, instead of the
DVD folder structure? I have many problems with this and do prefer the
discs, players are much simpler with them. A movie that is meant to be
50p can come out as 60p which is just unacceptable, not sure if this
happens for other players or people just don't care.
I couldn't find this original post.
Post by Peter Jason
Post by Trevor
Trevor.
I have many stored on HDDs too, but I know of no way to make a PVR
accept that HDD so as to watch those movies on a large lounge-room TV.
I would need a TV that accepts a Windows10-formatted HDD. Do these
exist? The PVRs I have had all come with their own formatting
system.
What form are the files in? DVD form, or just video files?
'Windows10-formatted HDD', that would be NTFS?
Otherwise I don't understand that phrase.
I think for 'formatting' you might mean file structure that the player
likes.
If a DVD folder structure then I would only use a computer or burn to
disc, as per reasons above.
Otherwise, probably any current bluray player, mine is a Sony 780, can
play movie files from a USB connected hard drive, formatted to NTFS
usually. Still I get issues with the 50p and 60p thing and still prefer
the original disc structure working. I've never tried mkv files.
When copying from an existing DVD I use "Nero Recode" that gives one
the preffered option of copying the main movie only, without all the
hoillywood baggage. Copying from downloaded BluRay, AVI, mkv, rtc I
prefer "ConvertXtoDVD6" that had a good subtitle facility.
hector
2017-03-09 06:35:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Jason
Post by hector
Post by Peter Jason
Post by Trevor
Post by Peter Jason
Post by hector
You should post a list. I'm always looking for rare gems hard to find.
You do know that it is trivally easy to copy dvds.
I don't know why he doesn't do this. I await such a list too. Nero
"Diskcopy" seems the fastest way to duplicate disks. And
"AudioLabel" is a good way to print on the platter's surface.
http://www.audiolabel.com/?reg
Have no idea why anybody would bother burning DVDR's these days when
it's quicker, easier, and just as cheap to simply copy to an external
hard drive. MUCH less physical storage space required too, and far
easier to find the movie you are looking for.
Unless you are selling illegal copies I guess.
Does this mean playing back the sequence of VOB files, instead of the
DVD folder structure? I have many problems with this and do prefer the
discs, players are much simpler with them. A movie that is meant to be
50p can come out as 60p which is just unacceptable, not sure if this
happens for other players or people just don't care.
I couldn't find this original post.
Post by Peter Jason
Post by Trevor
Trevor.
I have many stored on HDDs too, but I know of no way to make a PVR
accept that HDD so as to watch those movies on a large lounge-room TV.
I would need a TV that accepts a Windows10-formatted HDD. Do these
exist? The PVRs I have had all come with their own formatting
system.
What form are the files in? DVD form, or just video files?
'Windows10-formatted HDD', that would be NTFS?
Otherwise I don't understand that phrase.
I think for 'formatting' you might mean file structure that the player
likes.
If a DVD folder structure then I would only use a computer or burn to
disc, as per reasons above.
Otherwise, probably any current bluray player, mine is a Sony 780, can
play movie files from a USB connected hard drive, formatted to NTFS
usually. Still I get issues with the 50p and 60p thing and still prefer
the original disc structure working. I've never tried mkv files.
When copying from an existing DVD I use "Nero Recode" that gives one
the preffered option of copying the main movie only, without all the
hoillywood baggage. Copying from downloaded BluRay, AVI, mkv, rtc I
prefer "ConvertXtoDVD6" that had a good subtitle facility.
I've barely ever downloaded any video. When I have, it's something
difficult to obtain otherwise. Try a movie called Get Crazy from 1983.
I like to have full working disks these days.
Peter Jason
2017-03-13 05:29:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by hector
Post by Peter Jason
Post by hector
Post by Peter Jason
Post by Trevor
Post by Peter Jason
Post by hector
You should post a list. I'm always looking for rare gems hard to find.
You do know that it is trivally easy to copy dvds.
I don't know why he doesn't do this. I await such a list too. Nero
"Diskcopy" seems the fastest way to duplicate disks. And
"AudioLabel" is a good way to print on the platter's surface.
http://www.audiolabel.com/?reg
Have no idea why anybody would bother burning DVDR's these days when
it's quicker, easier, and just as cheap to simply copy to an external
hard drive. MUCH less physical storage space required too, and far
easier to find the movie you are looking for.
Unless you are selling illegal copies I guess.
Does this mean playing back the sequence of VOB files, instead of the
DVD folder structure? I have many problems with this and do prefer the
discs, players are much simpler with them. A movie that is meant to be
50p can come out as 60p which is just unacceptable, not sure if this
happens for other players or people just don't care.
I couldn't find this original post.
Post by Peter Jason
Post by Trevor
Trevor.
I have many stored on HDDs too, but I know of no way to make a PVR
accept that HDD so as to watch those movies on a large lounge-room TV.
I would need a TV that accepts a Windows10-formatted HDD. Do these
exist? The PVRs I have had all come with their own formatting
system.
What form are the files in? DVD form, or just video files?
'Windows10-formatted HDD', that would be NTFS?
Otherwise I don't understand that phrase.
I think for 'formatting' you might mean file structure that the player
likes.
If a DVD folder structure then I would only use a computer or burn to
disc, as per reasons above.
Otherwise, probably any current bluray player, mine is a Sony 780, can
play movie files from a USB connected hard drive, formatted to NTFS
usually. Still I get issues with the 50p and 60p thing and still prefer
the original disc structure working. I've never tried mkv files.
When copying from an existing DVD I use "Nero Recode" that gives one
the preffered option of copying the main movie only, without all the
hoillywood baggage. Copying from downloaded BluRay, AVI, mkv, rtc I
prefer "ConvertXtoDVD6" that had a good subtitle facility.
I've barely ever downloaded any video. When I have, it's something
difficult to obtain otherwise. Try a movie called Get Crazy from 1983.
I like to have full working disks these days.
I have just downloaded "Get Crazy" but it's a bit furry.
There's another copy being downloaded, but it'll be much the same I'll
bet.
Jeßus
2017-03-08 07:00:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Jason
Post by hector
Post by Jeßus
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Flipping through channels last night I happened across a show
on ABC2 talking about VHS tape collectors of all things. I
guess it has to happen eventually, but I'm a bit surprised that
it has while tapes are still sitting en-mass on the shelves of
most op-shops and junk stores for prices as low as 20c.
I've been meaning to do some research on my DVDs, I have over 1000
pre-2004 DVDs and many were limited editions (or whatever you wish to
call them). I haven't watched them in who knows how long and they're
just taking up space, so might as well consider selling them.
You should post a list. I'm always looking for rare gems hard to find.
You do know that it is trivally easy to copy dvds.
I don't know why he doesn't do this.
Because... I'm not interested in trading pirated DVDs?
hector
2017-03-08 12:50:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jeßus
Post by Peter Jason
Post by hector
Post by Jeßus
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Flipping through channels last night I happened across a show
on ABC2 talking about VHS tape collectors of all things. I
guess it has to happen eventually, but I'm a bit surprised that
it has while tapes are still sitting en-mass on the shelves of
most op-shops and junk stores for prices as low as 20c.
I've been meaning to do some research on my DVDs, I have over 1000
pre-2004 DVDs and many were limited editions (or whatever you wish to
call them). I haven't watched them in who knows how long and they're
just taking up space, so might as well consider selling them.
You should post a list. I'm always looking for rare gems hard to find.
You do know that it is trivally easy to copy dvds.
I don't know why he doesn't do this.
Because... I'm not interested in trading pirated DVDs?
What are you talking about? Do you have pirated DVDs?
Maybe you shouldn't trade them then. Why did you bring them up?
Peter Jason
2017-03-08 20:33:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by hector
Post by Jeßus
Post by Peter Jason
Post by hector
Post by Jeßus
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Flipping through channels last night I happened across a show
on ABC2 talking about VHS tape collectors of all things. I
guess it has to happen eventually, but I'm a bit surprised that
it has while tapes are still sitting en-mass on the shelves of
most op-shops and junk stores for prices as low as 20c.
I've been meaning to do some research on my DVDs, I have over 1000
pre-2004 DVDs and many were limited editions (or whatever you wish to
call them). I haven't watched them in who knows how long and they're
just taking up space, so might as well consider selling them.
You should post a list. I'm always looking for rare gems hard to find.
You do know that it is trivally easy to copy dvds.
I don't know why he doesn't do this.
Because... I'm not interested in trading pirated DVDs?
What are you talking about? Do you have pirated DVDs?
Maybe you shouldn't trade them then. Why did you bring them up?
It's like gastric reflux.
hector
2017-03-09 06:25:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Jason
Post by hector
Post by Jeßus
Post by Peter Jason
Post by hector
Post by Jeßus
Post by Computer Nerd Kev
Flipping through channels last night I happened across a show
on ABC2 talking about VHS tape collectors of all things. I
guess it has to happen eventually, but I'm a bit surprised that
it has while tapes are still sitting en-mass on the shelves of
most op-shops and junk stores for prices as low as 20c.
I've been meaning to do some research on my DVDs, I have over 1000
pre-2004 DVDs and many were limited editions (or whatever you wish to
call them). I haven't watched them in who knows how long and they're
just taking up space, so might as well consider selling them.
You should post a list. I'm always looking for rare gems hard to find.
You do know that it is trivally easy to copy dvds.
I don't know why he doesn't do this.
Because... I'm not interested in trading pirated DVDs?
What are you talking about? Do you have pirated DVDs?
Maybe you shouldn't trade them then. Why did you bring them up?
It's like gastric reflux.
What I was trying to say, that if someone doesn't want their dvds any
more, they can back them up somewhere, then sell the originals.
I have too many DVDs and blurays (remember them!) lying around too.
I hate streaming video.
Jeßus
2017-03-11 20:44:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by hector
What I was trying to say, that if someone doesn't want their dvds any
more, they can back them up somewhere, then sell the originals.
I see. I do that with audio CDs. but have no interest in selling them
after doing so. DVDs are a slightly different matter for me and I'll
sell mine off at some point.
Post by hector
I have too many DVDs and blurays (remember them!) lying around too.
I hate streaming video.
Not a big fan of streaming video either.
hector
2017-03-12 01:48:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jeßus
Post by hector
What I was trying to say, that if someone doesn't want their dvds any
more, they can back them up somewhere, then sell the originals.
I see. I do that with audio CDs. but have no interest in selling them
after doing so. DVDs are a slightly different matter for me and I'll
sell mine off at some point.
Post by hector
I have too many DVDs and blurays (remember them!) lying around too.
I hate streaming video.
Not a big fan of streaming video either.
Maybe take the discs out of those boxes, store the labels, and put them
in thin disc holders.
One day I will have an internet account at my house where I can watch
movies. Quickflix now have a policy of less blurays, as the remaining
video stores too. I only want blurays now.
Jeßus
2017-03-12 21:25:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by hector
Post by Jeßus
Post by hector
What I was trying to say, that if someone doesn't want their dvds any
more, they can back them up somewhere, then sell the originals.
I see. I do that with audio CDs. but have no interest in selling them
after doing so. DVDs are a slightly different matter for me and I'll
sell mine off at some point.
Post by hector
I have too many DVDs and blurays (remember them!) lying around too.
I hate streaming video.
Not a big fan of streaming video either.
Maybe take the discs out of those boxes, store the labels, and put them
in thin disc holders.
Thought of doing that years ago but didn't think it was worth the
trouble. I've become so accustomed to viewing digital media from hard
drives that I find even DVD and Blueray an inconvenience. I rarely
play a DVD these days and never even thought about jumping on the
Blueray bandwagon.
Post by hector
One day I will have an internet account at my house where I can watch
movies. Quickflix now have a policy of less blurays, as the remaining
video stores too. I only want blurays now.
My NBN Skymuster service is now reliable enough to support something
like netflix, but I'm still in no hurry to use streaming services.
Peter Jason
2017-03-13 05:37:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by hector
Post by Jeßus
Post by hector
What I was trying to say, that if someone doesn't want their dvds any
more, they can back them up somewhere, then sell the originals.
I see. I do that with audio CDs. but have no interest in selling them
after doing so. DVDs are a slightly different matter for me and I'll
sell mine off at some point.
Post by hector
I have too many DVDs and blurays (remember them!) lying around too.
I hate streaming video.
Not a big fan of streaming video either.
Maybe take the discs out of those boxes, store the labels, and put them
in thin disc holders.
One day I will have an internet account at my house where I can watch
movies. Quickflix now have a policy of less blurays, as the remaining
video stores too. I only want blurays now.
The blank BluRay platters are getting cheaper. About 1$ea for a
50-spindle.

I put my DVDs into plastic sleeves & store them in an old library-card
cabinet....
https://postimg.org/image/obi2wmt17/
...that will hold about 3000 sleeved DVDs when full.
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